Your question was: Your thoughts...?.
Snafu2006...A MALE THOUGHT from Pianoguy:Your post (which was a tad long) clearly points out the differences between males and females...and how both sexes often respond to one another!So you can't impose a FEMININE standard on a male remark...no matter how distasteful you might find it! This also goes for male behavior.You're certainly welcome to tell any man that you find his comments or actions offensive, but that doesn't mean we'll change our behavior...or even pay any attention to you!Pianoguy..
Hi pianoguy, thanks for the feedback. Sorry for the long post. I agree that one cannot force another to change. In those cases, where one person finds the other's behavior unattractive or class-less the only option would be to not date using Match.com the person if the guy or gal doesn't have a problem with what the other finds degrading. I have witnessed women doing the same thing to men and I find it unappealing coming from women too. Think about it - why enter into a relationship? For love and companionship.
If one doesn't find another's behavior loving then why stay?..
Hello again, snafu2006!Pianoguy agrees with your comments about self-esteem in conjunction with love and relationships....as well as counting too heavily on a S.O.More than a few members of both sexes can be self-confident and sure of themselves? And there are others who can also be shy, suspicious (aka paranoid) and over-sensitive about almost ANYBODY!Personally...I find that many of us often assume a 'bravado'or use crass dialoguein order to compensate for the LACK OF CONFIDENCE that we possess inside ourselves!Pianoguy..
I want to know more about your opinion on this...if you dont mind."I find that many of us often assume a 'bravado'or use crass dialoguein order to compensate for the LACK OF CONFIDENCE that we possess inside ourselves!"> I see..so the cockiness is really a way to compensate at the moment for a feeling of insecurity. I agree and I have seen plenty women behave the same way.I dont know if you caught my other post on this, but I saw someone categorizing himself as a nerd or loser because in h.s. he was quiet and serious and, I guess, studious. I dont consider that behavior that to be nerdy or the guy to be a loser. But I have noticed that men who project that stigma onto themselves have a learning curve in dealing with the opposite sex in terms of manners or behavior that would be considered classy and not crude or oafish...
Snafu2006...PG would like to start with your second comment....concerning all "nerds" in high school.I WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THEM...because my love was music and not sports!So if a student didn't at least play or have enthusiasm for a particular sport...he or she was considered A NERD! Ironically...things changed for me after participating in the Senior Class Play, as well as several high school musical groups. I got 2 class superlative awards: MOST MUSICAL & MOST SINCERE! Go figure??Back to your question #1:COCKINESS is usually a way people masque their insecurities! A person can begin this type of behavior in elementary school and continue with it ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIS (OR HER) LIFE! Most of us 'grow out of it'but a few don't...in spite of suggestions from friends, family members or total strangers to do so!Maybe this is the reason the word: CLASShas several definitions???Pianoguy..
Most Sincere? Who woulda thought? hehe. I understand that you experienced people regarding you as a "nerd", but did YOU perceive yourself that way? Because that is what is really important. My first husband and I went to the same h.s. but did not actually meet until college - but...he played keyboards in h.s. and it did not affect his popularity in an adverse way at all. But maybe h.s.'s in nyc are different than where you grew up.The people I have referred to as the "geeks" in s.
I'm sure some thought I was being cruel, but I am not.Maybe manners is a better term to see the behavior that I look for in a guy - class or classy can be deceiving.So...why havent you found a nice girl? I know the pickings are slim out there, especially as we age. I dont know how old you are, but I'm 45 and as time goes on the scarier people get out there - and so desperate - ugh - horrible...
WOW!!! Thank you for taking the time to write this, you are SO right on! I was talking about this the other day...society has programmed women to think that degrading yourself is empowering. Now women want to be a certain way so they can have all the power, which in turn hands the power right over to men. Yes, Girls Gone Wild is perfect example. Another is the way sex is now portrayed. The prudes are now the girls who won't put out until the third date. WHAT!!! Women have been told, you're just like men, you NEED sex, you should have sex with a guy as quickly as possible, so you can "try him out", just like men do, test drive the car, you're a liberated woman who's comfortable wither her body and her sexuality! A week later, that same woman is on ivillage or at her friend's house, mourning that the one night stand who she now wants as a boyfriend hasn't called her.
Sex is not created equal, ever, and never will be. Trying to make it so only results in pain and misery. Ask a man and he will tell you...women hold the keys when it comes to sex. That doesn't only mean they will have sex with us whenever we want. It also means they will view us as we ask them to view us.
And fun, sure, because who doesn't want to get it for free? If we're the girl taking our top off and kissing our girlfriend on camera, well, I don't need to elaborate, they will have no respect for us, because we have asked them not to.Does this mean women hold most of the responsibility? Yes, unfortunately, unfair and awful as that may be. And look what we're doing with it. We can never undo the damage porn stars, Girls Gone Wild, The Real World, rap videos, rap SONGS, and our boyfriend's past girlfriends have done, but we can refuse to be a part of it. Just rise above. On this one, it really is that simple.
Refuse to participate in the madness. Live by the standards you believe in. And yeah, if you discover that your man is more interested in the shallower side, leave him to pursue it...
"Sex is not created equal, ever, and never will be." > I do believe that a woman can enjoy casual sex (because I have), but a man will always do it better and without any pain or misery.As far as NEEDING sex- everyone enjoys sex and if a woman wants to have sex by the third date using Match.com or the second date using Match.com or whatver - that is HER choice. I have never been told what you mentioned in your post - eg. "test drive the car." I have had a number of different casual relationships and I have been married twice and if I want to sleep with someone it is my choice and on my terms and no man has ever spouted that crap to me. But, I am a little different than a lot of women. I dont want to be in a serious relationship (thru Match.com) unless I really dig the person. Sex is a physical release for a man and a woman.
"if you discover that your man is more interested in the shallower side, leave him to pursue it." > I couldn't agree with you more. I do not fight for a guy or over a guy. If I am out with a guy and he seems to prefer the company of another woman over me, then I'll just leave him to enjoy his evening without me. I'll leave him right there and never say goodbye. I don't get all worked up emotionally over men anymore - I havent in MANY years - because it's not worth it.
Instead of crying over losing a man a woman should accept the fact that he and she were not the right fit and better she knows sooner than later. If a woman wants to cry over losing someone, let it be over losing herself, her heart and her soul over someone who is totally not worth any tears. Sure, we'll hurt over misplaced trust but we should learn from it so it wont happen exactly the same way again. What I cant believe is when women get breast implants and it is inserted through the nipples or inside breast tissue instead of inside your chest cavity you can lose nipple sensation. How horrible to lose that sensation.
Those girls can keep their double d's - I'm having more fun and I had implants put in over 20 years ago. I just went up one size to bring my body into proportion - my idea- and my first husband (who was my BF at the time) cautioned me not to have the surgery. I'm not sure if men can have nipple orgasms but I know many a man who enjoy having their nipples sucked and licked and touched especially when they are masturbating. And if they or women don't have any desire for that or dont feel anything ...I feel sorry for them."If we're the girl taking our top off and kissing our girlfriend on camera" this is another thing that I have witnessed over the years - men egging women on to have threesomes with another woman so the wife or GF can still keep her man. If the guy wants another woman, she needs to just let him go.
And I thought a lot of these women were too together to allow themselves to be pushed around that way. I declined the invitations. But men do seem to love watching women kiss other women. One night I was out with my second ex husband and another couple. I knew the woman from work and once upon a time I thought we were friends, but I realized later we were not friends.
We were at an outside bar listening to music and we all had plenty to drink. Out of nowhere, while my exhusband's head was turned towards the bar the woman just planted a kiss on my lips - not open mouth. Out of reflex my lips pushed back, - like a kiss that sounds like "mwaa". First of all, I never expected her to do that and then..I didn't expect her to say "that was a good kiss". I could tell her boyfriend liked it a little too much, and I laughed and thought "WTF?" "What just happened?" My ex missed everything.
Soon after that night she and I went out somewhere and we were in her car and when she parked the car I just sat in my seat and turned my head and stared over to her waiting for her to say something about what she did - an explanation - she just hung her head, which was what I wanted her to do...
Great, well thought out post!Have you read: Female Chauvinist Pig: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, by Ariel Levy?I'm in the process of reading it now. Interesting book. "...Levy cleverly leads us to explore the role models women aspire to emulate. We are not pursuing the confident, self-determined, powerful, free ideal the womens liberation movement would have dreamed for it's daughters. Instead, our icons are porn stars and strippers and prostitutes. Paris Hilton and Jenna Jameson flaunt their successes in the pornography industry, and in doing so seem to earn our adulation...... The reality that we model ourselves on images whose "individuality is erased" is harsh, yet Levys work is imbued with hope hope that women can celebrate their uniqueness instead of their hotness, explore their sexuality as delight rather than consume sex as currency, and succeed professionally because of their brilliant minds and personalities, not because of their brilliant bodies.Megan Jones Ady"..
No, I have not read this book. I must check it out. It sounds very interesting.The sad part is that teenage girls (and even younger) are not able to see the manipulation and succumb to peer pressure by men and women to perform sex acts they are not emotionally ready to handle for "popularity". Such coersion by boys. If they dont submit they dont get to date using Match.com and their "status' among their peers deteriorates. How unfortunate for them that it is all twisted around, yet they dont see it...
Quite an interesting post. Glad you got on that soapbox, Snafu.I, too, am an "older" lady, but I am dating (online dating with Match.com) a 42 year old man. He is more of my generation and mores than those in their 20's. We do, however, frequent some downtown clubs and restaurants where the younger set hang out a lot and we have had plenty of occasions to observe them in action. I am referring to men and women in their 20's.My guy will observe these provocatively, scantily clad women and he will look because they are putting it all out there, as will I, because we are people-watchers and not prudes, by any means. I dress in a young style, but with taste and dignity.
But he has told me once it was a mixture of humor, brains, and a classy bearing in a woman, in addition to an attractive body. I gave him an A+ for that answer!I have noticed all the older guys at these clubs gawking at these young women and their antics, I was happily surprised to hear my guy ask the other day, "Why do they all want to act like pole dancers and strippers when they dance?" He clearly did not understand why they would demean themselves in that way. They simulate sex acts on the dance floor, cling to men and chase them around, and mug for pictures with their girlfriends with their tongues sticking out. I asked my BF what he thought about the tongue shots, and he said he thought it was unattractive. I was a bit surprised because he always watches it.So, young women, if you aspire to be a "lady" with all the honor and perks that title bestows (and I do not mean in an old-fashioned sense, but in a modern way), rest assured that there are wonderful guys out there who do not think wearing street walking clothes, doing suggestive pole-dance gyrations, and sticking out your tongue like a three-year-old is attractive.
Not the quality guys. End of rant...
Interesting info - I have always known "hot" to mean someone who a guy would like to screw and makes it blatant in a crass way. Your BF's definition is what they want us to feel about the word and I dont buy it. Now, I'm sure he had you in mind when he told you that so I do give him an A for effort. But again, I dont buy his definition. Now a guy could feel the same way about a woman he called "attractive", but "hot" really shoves it in your face with no mystery about it. Oh, I disagree - men will definitely take home the hot women and screw them.
It's almost like women have become the little dogs in the circus who will jump through all the hoops to snag a scooby snack. Instead of pushing back a little, they will wag their tongues (which I feel is most unattractive on a woman) just like the little dogs to get a pat on the head for approval. Instead of becoming more confident and in control of their lives women are heading in the opposite direction..
Edited 7/3/2007 7:31 pm ET by snafu2006..
Snafu, I think you are right. So, "hot" implies just plainly, "I would like to screw that"? Wow, how demeaning. Worse than I thought. Quite direct. Well, in defense of my boyfriend, he does like brainy-looking women like Jenny McCarthy, and he has called her hot. So, he is probably mostly attracted to a bit older, smarter, accomplished, beautiful woman.
LOL) BUT I think you are right in that he probably has another, more direct definition of "hot", which implies a sexual act, that he was too polite to tell me. I guess most guys do. What has the world come to?And you are also right that the drunk, gyrating women do frequently get taken home with someone, but you will notice I used the word "quality" guys. MY GUY would not do that, although he will look. If he really wanted to do that, and he was unattached, he would just go pay a "dancer" for a certain amount of time, and walk away with no strings attached..
"brainy-looking women like Jenny McCarthy" > how do you figure brainy looking? I havent enjoyed her style of comedy but that doesn't mean she is not funny to someone. However, she has a shrill of a voice and that will probably keep me from watching anything she is in for a long time."If he really wanted to do that, and he was unattached, he would just go pay a "dancer" for a certain amount of time, and walk away with no strings attached." > and you are okay with that? I wouldn't be okay with that - that's cheating and prostitution. Where is the religious right on this issue? probably getting lap dances, hehe.The word "hot" has many meanings to many people. the problem is that women are brainwashed into believing that what is demeaning is not demeaning...but maybe "cool". So society (which is run by males) turns everything we have ever known upside down to confuse and reassociate different words to us. The problem is that I am get the feeling that I am from a different time and place where no one ever used the word "hot" unless it involved tempoerature or was spoken between two intimates.
"Hot" is not a word a mayor should use about a governor. That is not professionally appropriate. I'm sure it was done purposely to illustrate that no matter how high on the food chain a woman climbs, some a$$ will make sure she understands that she can be brought down in a minute by deeming her hot. So now weforget all the work she has done over the years as a public servant and just focus on her t!ts and a$$. It is being used to make sure no one ever takes any of us seriously and that includes accomplishments, fears, safety, respect, etc.
Men are making sure we dont think too highly of ourselves and men that who refer publicly to women that way have no place in my world, because he'll bring me down the same way..
Edited 7/3/2007 11:52 pm ET by snafu2006..
I get the points you are making - but my take on it is simply saying something about me doesn't make it true and doesn't demean me unless I allow it to. I know who I am and what I am and am not. Nothing anyone says will change that. I do agree that far too many women do accept labels that they aren't comfortable with just to get or keep a man's attention. But there is equal responsibility here - first from the unenlightened man speaking in demeaning ways and the woman who chooses to tolerate it and act in ways that are also demeaning. Pwople will treat you at the level of respect you require - which is usually the level of respect you have for yourself - and it's is clearly visible in the rather sad actions many women and girls engage in and perform.
I agree with a lot of what you posted."I do agree that far too many women do accept labels that they aren't comfortable with just to get or keep a man's attention." > the scary part is that half of the time women accept these labels, not so much to keep a guy's attention, but because their minds have been twisted around to see those labels as cool, hip and modern. No one is noticing that everything is a$$backwards. Women dont even notice that the shoes they are wearing have arches too far back and will flatten their feet. I was in a store trying on shoes and another woman had the same pair of shoes in her hand and I asked her if she noticed that the arch was too far back, putting pressure towards her heel and she said she didn't even notice."But there is equal responsibility here - first from the unenlightened man speaking in demeaning ways and the woman who chooses to tolerate it and act in ways that are also demeaning." > very true. That is why the slow rise out of this muck will be twice as difficult."I think the way to change this is one woman or girl at a time - teach them to love and cherish themselves and they are less likely to demean themselves and allow others to do it." > I hope it works.I was working out one day at a gym and some guy starting talking to me about being "dewy" and it took everything I had to not clock him in the face with my dumbbell - that's "hot" for you. Men are expecting women to be "hot" - ready, willing and able to have sex with them at the drop of a hat - like a prostitute.
Men dont want to engage in foreplay anymore because it takes too long and prostitutes dont require that - they have their lube and the dancers down the street will rub up against you for $400 in a private room - why bother trying to please the missus?"but my take on it is simply saying something about me doesn't make it true and doesn't demean me unless I allow it to." > that's fine for an adult's personal life, but something does need to shift in media and entertainment so that young girls dont desensitize that concept to be benign. Somehting bigger needs to happen...
"but my take on it is simply saying something about me doesn't make it true and doesn't demean me unless I allow it to." > that's fine for an adult's personal life, but something does need to shift in media and entertainment so that young girls dont desensitize that concept to be benign. Somehting bigger needs to happen.Agreed - which is something I feel strongly about doing with the women and girls in my life. And I'm working on developing that avenue as my life passion. Sad but true, that insecure and unenlightened people raise up even more insecure and unelightened people. It on those who have learned in the trenches to help guide and teach others by words and deeds, that there is another choice to make - of self love and self respect. It is an uphill battle, but not one to give up on.regards,Toni.
"Agreed - which is something I feel strongly about doing with the women and girls in my life. And I'm working on developing that avenue as my life passion." > how nice, you have a life passion. That's more than most people can say. Good luck with it...
"Publisher Comments:Meet the Female Chauvinist Pig the new brand of "empowered woman" who wears the Playboy bunny as a talisman, bares all for Girls Gone Wild, pursues casual sex as if it were a sport, and embraces "raunch culture" wherever she finds it. If male chauvinist pigs of years past thought of women as pieces of meat, Female Chauvinist Pigs of today are doing them one better, making sex objects of other women and of themselves. They think they're being brave, they think they're being funny, but in Female Chauvinist Pigs, New York magazine writer Ariel Levy asks if the joke is on them. In her quest to uncover why this is happening, Levy interviews college women who flash for the cameras on spring break and teens raised on Paris Hilton and breast implants. She examines a culture in which every music video seems to feature a stripper on a pole, the memoirs of porn stars are climbing the best-seller lists, Olympic athletes parade their Brazilian bikini waxes in the pages of Playboy, and thongs are marketed to prepubescent girls. Levy meets the high-powered women who create raunch culture the new oinking women warriors of the corporate and entertainment worlds who eagerly defend their efforts to be "one of the guys." And she traces the history of this trend back to conflicts between the women's movement and the sexual revolution long left unresolved.
Irresistibly witty and wickedly intelligent, Female Chauvinist Pigs makes the case that the rise of raunch does not represent how far women have come, it only proves how far they have left to go."Here is a book review from the NY Times:http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/books/review/18egan.html?ei=5070&en=700599145108917a&ex=1183694400...September 18, 2005'Female Chauvinist Pigs': Girls Gone Wild By JENNIFER EGAN"Reading "Female Chauvinist Pigs," Ariel Levy's lively polemic, gave me an epiphany of sorts. Finally, a coherent interpretation of an array of phenomena I'd puzzled over in recent years: the way Paris Hilton's leaked sex tapes seemed only to enhance her career; the horrifying popularity of vaginoplasty, a surgical procedure designed to make female genitalia more sightly; and a spate of mainstream books about stripping and other sex work, some reviewed in these pages. Levy has a theory that makes sense of all this. Our popular culture, she argues, has embraced a model of female sexuality that comes straight from pornography and strip clubs, in which the woman's job is to excite and titillate - to perform for men. According to Levy, women have bought into this by altering their bodies surgically and cosmetically, and - more insidiously - by confusing sexual power with power, so that embracing this caricaturish form of sexuality becomes, in their minds, a perverse kind of feminism.Levy's evidence is unsettling: that a number of female Olympic athletes saw fit to pose nude for Playboy before the 2004 games in Athens, for instance, or that Crunch gyms in several American cities offer "Cardio Striptease" classes, where women work out in bras and thongs.
She finds a similar geometry in all of the worlds she visits. Women are preoccupied with a "girly-girl" aesthetic originating with strippers and porn stars, but they tend to view these images from a crude, objectifying perspective that has traditionally been male. In the lesbian communities she visits, "bois," many of whom have had "top surgery" to remove their breasts, say things like, "Some of these chicks, it's like you top them once and then they're all up in your face." A female publishing executive boasts of having the largest example of male anatomy in her office. At the Cake parties, promoted by their organizers as "feminism in action," female audience members coolly assess the breast size of women simulating sex onstage.Levy makes her most daring leap when she likens this reductive female sexuality and it's correlative chauvinism to the coping strategies of two of the black characters in Harriet Beecher Stowe's "Uncle Tom's Cabin": Tom, who tries to fulfill his oppressors' every expectation, and George Harris, who is light-skinned enough to pass for white. In both cases, she writes, a subordinate group embraces stereotypes as a way to gain the dominant group's acceptance.
But how far is that? She writes only about people and incidents that illustrate her theory; she doesn't discuss a single pop star or public figure who has escaped the reductive dichotomy of female behavior she describes. In writing about teenagers, Levy describes an alarming world in which young girls routinely lap dance for boys at school dances, perform oral sex on them without reciprocation and make out with each other in front of them, all for the ego boost of male excitement and the notoriety that follows. Levy says she spoke with 50 young people between the ages of 12 and 18, some of whom she quotes, but she doesn't explain how she arrived at this sample or how representative it is of American culture as a whole. Similarly, in the final pages she speaks at length with three sexually aggressive adult women whose descriptions of sex "sounded less than smoldering," and uses them to bolster her argument that female sexual desire is being ignored. Fair enough, but these are three people.
And it raises a question that reaches far beyond the faddish popularity of the sex industry. Levy never mentions John Berger, but at times her book strongly echoes his "Ways of Seeing." Berger wrote: "Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at..The surveyor of woman in herself is male: the surveyed female. Thus she turns herself into an object." "Ways of Seeing" was published in 1972, and Berger's theory of female objectification hinged on women's historical lack of real-world power or independence: "Men survey women before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated." But things have changed a lot since 1972.
They can treat themselves. Why, then, do they persist in watching themselves through male eyes?Jennifer Egan's new novel, "The Keep," will be published next year."..
Snafu, you have hit on what I was trying to say about Jenny McCarthy. I am not familiar at all with her, but she doesn't have the "classic" beauty I would think my guy would rank as No. 1 as his favorite movie star. She is not very attractive to me. So, even though I am unaware of her brand of humor, I was pretty pleased that he chose to like her because of something other than her body, not that he is obsessed or anything.And yes, I would not tolerate for a moment my BF going to a strip joint. I said if he was "unattached", meaning not with me.
I am also aware that so very, very many men partake of it on occasion, as I am aware that many women choose to "sell" themselves this way.I am glad that I have raised two daughters whose self-worth is based in their accomplishments and careers and sense of ethics, et cet. I think perhaps we women of the feminist era have let our daughters down at times by allowing them to believe that liberation is giving your body away in a demeaning way, doing shocking things, being someone else's stereotype, and not understanding your own sensuality and power. Some of these things just naturally come with age and maturity, but I also can't help but believe that the younger generation is really missing the boat by thinking that power-self actualization- self-confidence - fun - liberation is the same thing as mindlessly flaunting skin for some half-envisioned, temporary, external gain. At least, the women who sell their bodies in the strip joints have a set price and a clear expectation of what they will gain by what they are doing with their bodies...
<<how nice, you have a life passion. That's more than most people can say. Good luck with it.>>Actually, I believe everyone has 'a passion' - but many are either too busy surviving life to know what it is or they are too afraid to follow it. We all has something that just sits on our hearts - but we all don't necessarily do anything with it..
Great review - thanks for posting!It's sad to see that in our efforts to swing away from the feminist views of the 70's and 80's (dress like a man, act like a man, BE like a man) we've done a seemingly hardcore swing in the opposite direction and call it "3rd Wave Feminism" where we embrace and express our femine attributes and sexuality. I think that "embrace" has been mistaken with "flaunt".Perhaps this is just a natural step in achieving overall equality through the laws of physics - like a pendulum - it gains just as much energy on the second upswing as it loses. Therefore, it's going to take lots of air resistance to bring it to rest in the middle. The starting point could be "where we were", the upswing could be "where we are" and the air resistance is time, education and understanding...