VitaminShoppe's thermo cardio system?

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My first question is: VitaminShoppe's thermo cardio system?.

My next question is: Whats everyones views on this stuff?? what are the risks associated with it, what can I expect, gains and strength wise? How long will it need to be run for for best results. and will it have any positive effects on skin and hair growth etc (is reducing MPB possible using HGH) I know that gains wont be like doing a steroid cycle and that it would be best to run it alongside a cycle. Would it be good to aid keeoing gains after a steroid cycle. say maybe do a 3month steroid cycle alongside a 6month stint on HGH.

Sorry for all the Qs!..

Comments (36)

Your question was: VitaminShoppe's thermo cardio system?.

If everything else is spot on. Training , diet, rest etc then 2-4iu a day for 6 months should give you noticable gains that should be permanent. You can't really put a number to it as everyone is different and generally the older you are the better the response..

If you can aford it and want to try then by all means do so. You should be pleased with the results..

A lot of people would prefer to use the money to buy more gear in, but it's each to his own...

Comment #1

What about the side affects with HGH. People who have naturally over active levels get growth of the facial and hand bones which can change appearances. I am assuming if you take high dosages for long enouh it would have similar effects? What are your thoughts? HGH peaks during sleep and exercises invovling multi muscle groups (squats and deadlifts) have been shown to increase intramuscular test and HGH......out of interest..

Comment #2

The levels that cause these severe side effects are very high and so would be the dose needed if injecting GH I would say you would see these sides if you used 16iu+ ed for months but not on any less although we are all different, GH levels from core intense exercise is not much at all and can be blunted by what you drink post cannot compare to be honest...

I have used GH for the last 2yrs and I would say I have gained 10-15lbs in this time period of lean muscle that I can say is from the GH as a top level amateur yes I think it is worth it but if you do not compete I think you are wasting your money.....

Comment #3

To be fair hgh is a end game product, it's what you should be thinking about when everything else is maxed out..

Because of the recent stuff on the telly and papers people mistakenly beleve that it's a short cut to being masive (just in the same way people used to think about steriods)..

What I dont understand is if your not competeing or over 240lbs at average height why even contemplate this? why not just stick to the basics it's much cheaper and it will probably get you the results you want a whole lot more quickly...

Comment #4

I dont compete at this weight but I use it mate, sorry mate but from your last sentance you dont understandd the use GH can give most competing athletes at a particular level.....

Comment #5

Yea but how tall are you paul? your 5ft5"? so if we say that average height is say 5ft 10 your probably going to be loseing 8lbs a 1" in height so whats that 40lbs.. so thats 200lbs in the on stage.

Why would a light guy realy need hgh relative to his height? why couldnt you just use the regular meds avalible?.

Just recently theres guys that arnt even 220lbs at 6ft+ that are considering useing it...

I was always told that HGH is a end game drug, somthing you would use as a top amature or from a professional..

I meen if guys could get to huge before why the need to use such a expensive drug when sticking to the basic cheap compounds would often be far more productive...

Comment #6

I am with you on the fact that it is an end game product say the iceing on the cake, as for why do I use it plain and simple mate to be better as a bodybuilder GH gives you much more than fat loss and some muscle it gives a more polished look to the muscle..

Comment #7

I use gh simply because I can afford to and intend to get on stage once my good mate paul scarb has done me a cutting diet.....wink, wink..

It is an end game product, by all means. I have been on it 2 years now and whilst I was not anywhere near what I am now when I started, I feel it has helped me in my crusade..

If you have money to burn, give it a go. Don't expect miracles though dude..

You'l get more bang for your buck on juice than gh, but together they are awesome..

Especially pwo with slin, but that's a totally different ball game...

Comment #8

I know that you wont get the size gains that you will with steroids. but, lot of the gains that steroids give are not permenant! I was mainly interested in the HGHs permenant keepable gains and the potential anti ageing effects. What are these effects if anything at all???? for example, does it reverse MPB, give you better skin etc. and can it be significant in fat loss and changing body composition. I know it's expensive and I doubt il do it for a while, but it's something that id be interested in doing later in life to promote good health and to slow the ageing process...

Comment #9

I think for the anti-aging process the dose is a lot less than for bbing. Is hackskii on this board?.

He's a guy who uses it for this method, the old git...

Comment #10

Lol - it will be interesting to hear if anyone has any views on the anti ageing side if things?? does it really make a significant different??..

Comment #11

2-3 iu per day is the common doe for anti aging Which is lower than the bodybuilding does, it's also something you need to use long term to see real benefits. does it work yes..

Does it reverse MPB erm no ;-).

Does it improve skin condition - yes...

Comment #12

Insulin has anti ageing properties as well, it's much cheaper and more effective for strenght. more strenght- stronger muscles, better responce. and dirt cheap.

I meen yea your get new cell production with hgh, but come on most of us never maximise the muscle cells we already have...

Comment #13

Yes Insulin does all of those things but it also can make you incredibly fat and dead if you use to much so to me there is no comparison.....

Comment #14

Yeah I must admit, I dont fancy using slin coz of the risks involved with it. it's a bit too hardcore for my liking. I will try HGH at some point I think. maybe for a period of a year later in life. then I can see for myself. are there a lot of fakes going around??? like with gear?..

Comment #15

Ok, nobody wants to pressure you into somthng you dont want to do..

The dangers of insulin are overstated - to be honest only a moron could go wrong with humalog the longer acting ones then yea the risks of problems are far higher..

I meen people have tried to kill themsleves with hundreds of IUs of slin and survived but yea if you ignore all the danger signals, and dont follow your bodys craveing for simple suggars you could do yourself serious dammage..

This article realy states the case better than I ever could..

Who's Afraid of Insulin.

By -W-.

Updated 3/4/08.

Who's afraid of insulin? Nearly everybody, it seems. Why? Several reasons:.

1. One phrase keeps popping up again and again: "Insulin could kill you." Never mind that a high enough dose of any compound could kill you. Never mind that Insulin is so easy to measure correctly that a trained ape could do it..

2. A misplaced phobia that taking insulin will make you insulin dependent. This bro-ism is akin to the idea that eating fat makes you fat. While there is an element of truth to it, this fear is just not logically sound..

3. "Insulin will make you fat." It sure might, but it depends on who "you" is, and how "you" use insulin. Read on..

4. Last, but certainly not least - the key factor to most faulty dogma is this unfortunate tendency steroid board users have to parrot stuff they hear over and over again, without any regard for it's logic or truth. It's as if repetition were enough to make something true. Well it's not. So if you can't explain WHY something is true, consider not saying it at all..

Here's the truth about insulin:.

Novices shouldn't use it. But not because it's "dangerous". It's dangerous if someone is so damn stupid they can't figure out the correct dose. Or can't figure out whether to use a 3cc syringe or an Insulin Syringe to measure their Insulin. Yes, there is a risk that some none-too-sharp will fill up a U-100 insulin pin to 100 units, thinking it's 10 - but is that enough proof that insulin is evil, to shout "Insulin is dangerous!! It can kill you!!" from the rooftops?.

Novice athletes don't need slin because (1) it's not needed at that stage of their development; moreover, (2) if it's not run properly, by an extremely fit, healthy, top-level athlete, it is as likely to make you fat as yield muscular gains. Slin is only well-tolerated by bb'ers in top condition, training frequently and intensely. Why? Because these athletes generally have low bodyfat and good insulin sensitivity in lean muscle tissue. Insulin sensitivity determines whether nutrients will be stored as fat, or used to build muscle. This is what separates the 300lb monsters from the 800lb monsters - how the different tissues respond to this powerful hormone, insulin. Before you use insulin effectively, you must have mastered the two variables that determine your insulin sensitivity.

As a side note, I have come to believe that slin alone is of relatively marginal value without GH and/or AAS. Both GH and AAS are powerful partitioning agents, which further swing the anabolic effects of insulin toward muscle tissue. As to the GH/slin combo, I now consider both compounds virtually inseparable, because they are THAT effective together..

The Dangers of Hypoglycemia.

Hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) is easily avoided by ingesting a moderate amount of carbs. 10g carb (ANY carb) per iu insulin is more than enough. Still, post training, with the quick spike of a fast-acting insulin like humalog or novorapid, a user may feel some symptoms, such as light-headedness, dizziness, flushing, or sweating. Even so, with doses of 10iu and under, none of us have experienced hypo symptoms that would have been anything close to life-threatening. But we still ate extra carbs above and beyond the 6-10g/iu anyway. Why? Because sane people never take chances with their lives (and I consider myself very sane.) Moreover, the symptoms of hypoglycemia are unpleasant, and we like to avoid them..

It is fairly well-documented that 5-10 iu insulin alone is not enough to be life-threatening, even without ingestion of carbohydrates. FACT: Although it is difficult to pin down exactly what a lethal dose of insulin is, due to individual insulin sensitivity and other factors such as the type of insulin used, a lethal dose has been estimated as high as between 800 and 3,200 iu. 1.

Now, despite the shockingly high number, doses of this kind are insane for any healthy individual. For example, many bb'ers experience mild hypo symptoms on very low doses of insulin, such as 10iu. Why is this?.

1. Many bb'ers are in excellent condition, with very high insulin sensitivity - the better shape you are in, the more powerful insulin becomes..

2. The most popular time for insulin dosing is post-training, when blood sugar may already be fairly low, and quick energy stores depleted..

So, bottom line on the dangers of hypoglycemia:.

1. Dose correctly - make sure you use a short-acting insulin, and know how to measure insulin with proper syringes, etc..

2. Dose moderately (6-10iu) for beginning to intermediate users - start low and work up.

3. Consume 7-10g carbohydrates per unit insulin.

4. If you've done 1-3 correctly, you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Remember, in the end, we are talking about non-lethal doses, taken in conjunction with more than adequate carbs. Can we finally let the "insulin kills" dogma die?.

Insulin Dependence.

Not only is dangerous hypoglycemia a non-issue for the slin user that took the time to do 5 minutes worth of learning (as posted above), but long term insulin dependence is a non-issue if a moderate protocol is used. If you're taking 20iu slin 3x ED, I wouldn't comment on what you may be doing in terms of your health.

The truth is, moderate use of insulin will not burn out pancreatic beta cells and cause insulin-dependent diabetes. In fact, just the opposite. Exogenous insulin use will actually protect the beta cells from burnout, because the pancreas no longer has to work in overdrive to crank out enough insulin to store away the massive levels of carbohydrates we force into our systems, especially around training sessions. There is at least one individual who uses insulin for life extension purposes in this manner, though he is not a bodybuilder, diabetic, or a scientist - he's just a regular guy, improving his life by injecting regular small amounts of insulin with his food. His use is well-documented online, and I highly recommend you take a look. 2.

Insulin Resistance.

The other long term risk attribute to insulin use is insulin resistance. This is the most accurate of the accusations against insulin use, and I do actually feel that caution is warranted.

However, the fear is blown out of proportion, and needs to be analyzed in context. When one ingests a large quantity of carbohydrates, the body must produce enough insulin to shuttle the resulting glucose, in order to keep blood sugar levels in a safe range. The only difference is where the insulin comes from, the pancreas, or a vial. The exposure is the same, except that exogenous insulin is delivered all at once, in a spike. This is highly unlikely, given the responses we know from the body's other systems and hormones to result in significantly more insulin resistance than the same amount of insulin spread over a longer period of time. In fact, the resistance might even be less with exogenous administration..

And again, as discussed in the last section, exogenous insulin actually protects the pancreas from burnout, as opposed to forcing the body to crank out insulin on short notice to clear the bloodstream of massive quantities of sugars..

Bottom line: diet and training plays a far bigger role in insulin sensitivity/resistance than moderate insulin use..

The main fears about insulin - deadly hypoglycemia, insulin dependence, and insulin resistance - are misunderstood and greatly exaggerated. One good thing about these fears is perhaps they act as a gatekeeper to prevent the ignorant and uninformed from making stupid mistakes. Another good thing is perhaps keeping out those who have not yet attained the requisite level of development to obtain the benefits of insulin..

Once we've handled our fears, our diets, AND our training - only then can we begin to ask the important questions, like when and how should one use insulin. I'll pick up the discussion there at a later date..


Comment #16

100% YES. It totaly changes the way you think about PEDs, you can train harder and you are much stronger, your recovery is almost limitless. (but you need to use a fair old wack to get that)..

Right that avitar was at the peak of my last burst....

This is me a few days ago..

Thers a little bit of definition loss, but far less than what you would expect... rember only cruseing.

I was going to save this info for the end of my next burst but as it's a relivant topic I figure you guys can keep it under your hat for a while... (well 6 weeks anyway)..

I started experementing with slin during my cruse, I was curious about it's efects (many strongman do slin only cycles) so I knew it was good for strenght however everyone said it was crap for bodybuilding on it's own because you added loads of fat..

Anyway I rarely get suprised with things, but this totaly blew me away from the first day my strenght and genearly recovery ability was better than at the peak of my last burst. Its simple - amazing stuff. I told my friend "Its God in a bottle!".

Anyway the fun will realy start when the burst phase begins. (4 days away)...

Comment #17

The fact is mate that insulin can kill you or at least put you in hospital I know as I have had a very good freind in a coma because of insulin and he was say that the dangers are over rated is untrue..

Comment #18

Use a fair old wack....great advice mate so what would that dose be 4iu's, 40iu's ??? what is the time difference in the pics? what weight/strength did you get from the insulin??..

Comment #19

Theres about a 5 week diffrence..

I didnt go crazy, just built up from 2x7iu a day every day I increased the dose by 1iu untill I didnt feel a improvement in strenght, endurance. (that was 15iu x 2)..

My endurance went up, I had much more powerfull contractions, my double on stuff like bench became x4 and lower down it was much more pronounced my tripple I was able to do x6. and overall my recovery was much more pronounced - I was literaly realy to go after 30-60 seconds rest between sets..

Im not saying your wrong Paul - I hope it's not comming across like that, I respect you and it's stupid to consider I could give advice better than you - your results speak for itself and you have helped lots of people (includeing me on stuff like suplements).

I just wanted to present what was possible and present a diffrent point of view..

Im sorry to hear about your friend, was he useing humalog or R? or the longer acting ones?..

Comment #20

" just wanted to present what was possible and present a diffrent point of view ".

Insulin makes your beard grow ?

Comment #21

Wogihao you misunderstand my freind I am not saying you are wrong but I have to make sure that the information that comes across on this board is not going to cause harm to a newbie, you must understand that someone who does not want the side effects of Gear could read this post and think insulin is the way to go but not build up the dose as you and others do.....Insulin does work I know this for fact but their are many other factors involved to get the best from it....and when all is said and done it can kill you.....

Comment #22

Haha no - I think rather my lazyness in shaveing did that...

Comment #23

Ah I understand, yes the gradual ramping up of the dose is realy important because we all have diffrent levels of sensitivity. If someone were to want to copy it I would say start off even lower than 7iu for the first time..

I will write down exactly how I did it, so people can see clearly what I meen in another post...

Deffinitly not for a casual user - you can mess with anabolics all day long but unless your doing a munzer cycle realy it's not going to finish you, however it's much more critical to be serious with slin - same as with hgh realy but it's a cost issue with hgh more than a safety one, it's realy only if you need extreem growth or compition...

Comment #24

"its realy only if you need extreem growth or compition.".

Do you feel you need to use insulin fella ? .

It's your body, you're grown up enough to do what you like, but as the voice of experience, BE VERY CAREFUL mister. insulin can mess you up in more ways than one...

Comment #25

Sorry, didn't mean to sound pedantic.

Plus your spelling's horrible..

Sorry again...

Comment #26

Sorry I am dislexic, I try to take out the obvious errors but some slip me by...

Comment #27

Wogi - If you install firefox you can get a spell checker thing like MS Word..

Makes live much simpler...

Comment #28

Yes thats a idea, the problem I have though is a spell checker give a series of alternatives and I dont know whats the right one to pick. Thats another problem lol but If you guys dont mind me useing the wrong words that are corectly spelled then yea sure...

Comment #29

Lol - no it's cool bro. I think we can all understand you fine. going back to the original point. I like the idea of HGH because it has a positive effect on the body with no sides ( or none that have been mentioned......). HGH isnt just purely a muscle building drug. it also promotes good health. am I getting the facts right here???..

Comment #30

I have never used HGH, however I can tell you now that HGH does have side efects - nothing gained is without sacrifice. But that depends on dosage like most things and your bodys reaction to it..

You should know all the facts before you decided to use HGH, theres a number of things nobody knows for sure about the use of HGH and it's long term impact on health (like alot of things realy). However you seem to be under the impression that the use of this drug is risk free and without side-efects. This is not the case...

Comment #31

All positive research on hGH is anecdotal! But from what you will gather is that it does work!.

However, what doses are you thinking of taking?.

As obviously you cant get ethical approval to carry out studies with high volumes of the stuff.

Its funny because it's obviously banned by the IOC, but apparently one scientist discovered a way to detect it upto 3 weeks after use. However, the IOC said no for some reason. Bit odd dont you think? (me thinks corruption in the olympics :rolls:..

Comment #32

Lots of HGH studies on PubMed. Some more relevant than others...

Comment #33

The side effects of GH come with dose just as it does with all other drugs even slin.....

If you have never used GH before you could get CTS from as little of 4iu's thhis is easily remeded by lowering the dose for a week or so then increasing slowly, for me GH has far less possible side effects than Slin, you have to ask what you want to acheive from it though.....

Comment #34

No not really, all you can do is go by the opinion of BB's who have used GH at high doses.....

Comment #35

I am

I love the stuff myself..

If I could afford it I would be on for a long time low dose (supplementation)..

Anti-againg people take 1iu at night before bed..

Simple enough and enough studies suggest everthing from better eyesight to softer more elastic skin, more lean muscle mass, less bodyfat, better sleep, and a very long list of even stuff like improved lipid profiles..

I totally rate the stuff..

But, for me beings I am almost 50 years old, it would work better than those dudes that are young..

Below is 2 graphs of the decline in GH as we age, a bit diffrent slightly but you get the picture..

Now you can see why it gets supplemented in older people...

Comment #36

This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.


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