Dude, you really need to keep reading up on this before you you go the drug route...
There is loads of basic info on this site just take the time to researchdont forget your PCT.
On a side note ironclad ive seen guys ripped to the bone get gyno you need to be aware that anybody who uses AS could get it and keep nolva handy when running a cycle..
Believe me I am reserching practically everyday, if I wasn't i'd have pinned by now. But i'm no fool. I DO have all I need to complete a simple cycle but after good advice I am putting it on hold, as I have already stated.
The information I shared with the OP seems to me simple advice, get yourself healthy before thinking about a cycle. I don't have full knowledge of ALL steroids, but what little I do know I am happy to share and have criticis (= learning). So I have to ask you this BW; why have you made this unhelpful remark about my post? In one stroke you have circled my post and added a blunt remark which makes everything i've said seem rubbish. You have neither helped me understand where i've made a mistake (if indeed I have), nor have you helped the OP. Who prob now thinks my advice is useless..
First off, explain your comment; then why don't YOU give dec-man some of your wisdom...
Yes, yes I totally agree with you. All I did say was, "higher bf% = increased likelyhood of gyno". I didn't get to PCT. Thankyou for the heads-up fatboy, I am notrunning nolva during my future cycle (although I have enuff to sink a ship). I have 120ml of letrozole...
To be honest for a first cycle you would prob be better just using sustanon.
Or test enthanate on it's own at 500mg a week for ten weeks ..
Plus PCT simple and cost effective..
Sustanon250 is a mix of short, medium and slow release esters of testosterone, it isn't consider fast acting the idea is that the different esters hit at different rates smoothing out the half life. Prop is the fast acting ester..
Gyno is,n't fat around the nipples and has nothing to do with body fat levels although you see plenty of blokes walking round with man boobs who are fat, theyre nothing to do with Gyno, thryre to do with being fat.Gyno is the feminization of the area around the nipples caused by a hormone imbalance, too much estrogen, which is caused by the body trying to balance it's hormone levels due to the elevated levels of testosterone (obvious effect of taking testosterone) the body produces estrogen, mild cases would be sore nipples, clinical cases would be breast tissue. Take a look at several Pros ripped to the bone yet in an abs and thigh shot youll see a pronounced lump around the nipple this is gyno..
Bodyworks is right buy a couple of good books and read them thoroughly The works is a good place to start...
Ironclad I can understand that you think you are researching mate but for you to say that Sus250 is a fast ester speaks volumes to me that you have been researching the wrong things on the wrong site....
As Pikey has pointed out Sus is a multi ester test ranging from the prop (3-4 days) to the undeconaete(18 days) sus can be taken once or twice a week any more than this is pointless..
Fat Boy is bang on with his suggestion and that is to just use one steroid on your first course Sus 250 at 250mg - 500mg per week this will give some good results if you are eating enough cals to grow...
Sorry if I was abrupt. i'll explain my comment as you ordered. as paul and pikey suggested your understand of sustanon is well off. your understanding of what gyno is and how it's caused is also misplaced. your comment on 'muscling up' to burn off excess bodyfat is also misplaced. so the 3 points you raised were in fact, of no use to anyone.
Maybe I should have gone through my exceptions to your post in detail, but I didn't have time sorry dude...
I despair... all I tried to do was get the guy thinking about his high BF% before giving the sustanon a try. Bodyworks, once again you have made a sweeping statement with no follow-up explanation. Everytime you make a post in the future I could simply respond; "you need to read up more". And I would always be right, why? Because everybody, even the pros keeps reserching to keep up. You statement is as poor as you say mine is.
I think it is answers you are lacking, not time..
"... sus can be taken once or twice a week any more than this is pointless."; this is, according to my reading, not quite right. But not wrong either, it seems to be dose dependant. Those choosing 250sustanon once a week (so I read) may make good gains from this alone, but the diet has to be spot-on. However, many many folk I have spoken to and read old posts elsewere seem to agree that; despite the blend of:- propionate 30mg (2 days); phenylpropionate 30mg (4 days); isocaproate 60mg (9 days); decanoate 100mg (15 days) there are fast-acting esters present. So, to avoid test-level spikes (and here we get back to the gyno, again) I seem many prefer to shoot this EOD or E3D.
I'll get to high BF% giving an increased incidence of gyno another time (im now out of time lol), but pikeys post is enough I think..
Ps bodyworks I am sorry my earlier post seems off, I actually did get out of bed the wrong side that day, but I found your remark unhelpful..
Sorry to say mate but this is not true you cannot avoid test spikes with sus250 no matter how you dose it you could take it every hour and you would still have spikes. eod or ed use is pointless as you get no more benefit from it no matter the dose..
You are slightly off on your half life days aswell-.
Prop 4.5 days.
Enan 10.5 days.
Cyp 12 days.
Undeconate(Nebido) 16.5 days.
I did the calculations based on 4 popular injection frequency using 6ml of sus per week over a 4 week duration this is what I found..
ED - 1ml jabbed Mon - Sat..
EOD - 2ml injected Mon/Wed/Fri..
Twice weekly - 3ml injected Mon & Thur..
Once a week - 6ml injected once a week on the Sunday of each week..
ED method/EOD Method/Twice weekly Method - I have grouped these methods together as the results are very similar although the twice weekly method had the highest blood concentration of the three..
There is no stability in blood levels over the 4 weeks with the highest concentration being in the 4th week for all 3, Blood levels will be low enough to start PCT at the end of week 7 begining of week 8......
Once a week method - Although on a daily basis non of the methods had blood levels stable this method gave similar levels in weeks 3 and 4 it also had the highest concentration than the other 3 methods..
Blood levels are low enough to begin PCT at the end of week 6 and begining of week 7 which is a week earlier than the other 3..
Unfortunatly the word files I have the results on is to big to be attached but you can see from the above once a week or twice a week is all you need when using Sus...
Well thats fair enough Pscarb, and a good read! I must point out tho, I did state one guys opinion was that in larger doses (he 1500mg; you, same) the EOD or E3D jab is unnecessary. We made similar findings at this dose, no? Have you checked these findings against lower dosages, the doses OP originally described? This is where things change, it could be said.
Perhaps there are as many views on injection times as there are different types of sustanon... heres another one lol :- "50mg propionate, 50mg phenylpropionate , 50mg acetate, 90mg cypionante".
I'm going to hang my gloves up here, I feel I have totally hijacked this poor guys thread now. Perhaps I could have given a better 1st reply to this thread, but hey it's thrown up some debate eh! Sorry to anyone offended.....
There is no apology necessary mate as debate is always welcomed I agree on your first post but you have apologised for that so no harm done..
Lower amounts of sus do not result in different findings the issue with Sus is that many believe it should be injected frequently because of the Prop contained in it although Sus250 only contains 30mg which is very very low..
The different type of Sus you speak of is an UG brand and their are many out their but these are just multi ester blends I can only speak of original Sus as that was what I coded into the macro to get the results, I suppose I could do it with this type but I cannot see the point as this would definitely be faster as the bulk of the esters are faster than original sus...
Ironclad... Shane has offered to answered answer any question you care to ask him:.
I think it's perhaps a good idea for you to "hang up your gloves" here as you are clearly boxing above your weight...
But if you do have any questions - then DO ask them. There are alot of good guys on here with alot of knowledge. Everyone is hear to learn, and no one was born with the knowledge they have now - it came as a result of time and effort, trial and error...
Thats very amusing Tall, a well thought out insult. Good work..
Ok, seeing as you won't let this alone....
Originally I suggested (little more) to the OP that he lowered his BF% to decrease the likelyhood of any gyno occuring, thats advice I have been given and right or wrong seems sensible. This was pretty much shot down in flames and taken further than necessary by BW; rather cheesed off by this I asked BW to explain what he thought was wrong and why and invited him to offer some advice on this BF% question to OP (and me, i'm interseted to know). Now is this or is this not a question??.
I also mentioned (but gave no details) that 'there is a school of thought that says if you can increase your muscle size this may help to burn fat, to support this extra muscle'; now ok, sure, this is quite possibly crud but should have opened a debate. Again, when this was rubbished there was no explanation, I asked for one. Now is this or is this not a question??.
The twice weekly shots of sustanon is also advice I see given around many forums. As pscarb and I have fully discussed this is prob not truelly necessarily, but is by no means harmful. Fatboy likes his once a week, others I have spoken to like once a week at high doses, many others say to split up the doses. I was just trying to get the OP thinking and open the door to others ideas to help this dude. However, instead I got an ear-full. To be told I am not reserching is wrong, I have just seen different views.
Fatboy, Pikey and Pscarb are happy with their view/experiance, and I like what they've said. It make sense..
My suggestion to OP was knocked, but explained. No question here..
I DO agree with you, there are good informative folk on this board and it's a great place to share views, get educated and make friends. But I also notice there are (sadly) some who have little more than smart-alec remarks to make, or blunt uninformative comments that help no-one..
Now Tall, am I still punching above my weight? Would you like to grind this out more, or shall we start a new thread so you can input your experiance of 'trial and error'?.
Lets be friend eh ! (i'm starting a new thread tonight, see you there?)..
I love the internet me. Hopefully the above responses show you what you could have gone and looked up.
Comments in red above..
Your red comments...
1st, ok, my bad. I apologise for mistaking pointed whittisism as insult.
1st (pt2), I'm not doubting shanes (BW?) qualifications, I asked for him to back-up his remark on my suggestion. To 'prove what you say'. And 'share your wisdom'. There certainly was a void of answers, but I didn't for a moment think he couldn't answer them, this wasn't a challenge and I don't / didn't want a fight. I'd prob lose (but be educated).
3rd, we'll look into this on another thread shall we, i've seen your conclusion btw and when more people respond later i'll give my view....
4th, have already said this is just a view and not necessarily true.
5th, now you are just being daft.
6th, you have only re-stated what I have recently said here. But, ok my original post was somewhat lacking in depth. I ment to say something like 'because there are fast acting- short life tests in sustanon' etc etc.
7th, sure thing. in future i'll get more into the spirit of things. I said I got up wrong side of bed, apologised, but also said I felt that some explanation was still required (demanded lol, sorry BW).
8th, wrong and right.
9th, you correctly identified who I ment! Have a chokky bar (whit j/k).
10th, by this I tried to show you that I can hold my own, and I fully understand that I do NOT have all the answers, all I tried to do was get some response to a sweeping comment 'you know nuffin' (not a quote btw) from the walking encyclopedia...
Sustanon 250 is a unique blend of 4 different esters of testosterone. The principle purpose of attaching an ester to a steroid is to make it more lipophillic, so that when injected intra-muscularly it can remain in the adipose tissue longer and is released in the blood-stream over time. The longer an ester, the more lipophillic it is. Sustanon 250 contain 1 short, 1 long and 2 medium length esters that are all delivered over time, which gives a quick release, but a durable one as well. You may think that this is a positive thing, and to patients requiring testosterone therapy this probably is, but to a steroid user it's really not.
A steroid user will use a long-acting testosterone and inject it once a week. The end of a week is usually the time when a long-acting (7 or 8 carbon) ester has tapered down to it's original level and threatens to drop below that level, giving sub-par amounts of testosterone beyond that point (eventhough the compound stays somewhat active for 3-4 weeks). With sustanon, that equal amount is divided much differently. Imagine a hypothetical situation where one take either 270 mg of a an ester that lasts 6 days, or 270 mg of a blend of different esters, 90 mg each, that release over respectively 2, 4 and 6 days, analog to sustanon. With the first one, an even amount of testosterone is released on each day. With the second one the entire first ester, half the second ester and 1/3rd of the last ester is released within the first two days.
The levels peak much sooner, and drop off sooner, leaving you with less than adequate androgen levels as the week draws to a close.
So for use as one would use another long-acting testosterone, I find sustanon to be poor value. The price is roughly the same so I really don't see the affinity people seem to have for it. Respectively cypionate and enanthate are much better choices. I can understand the need for a fast-acting component to front-load and kick-start gains, but even then, testoviron (200 mg testosterone enanthate and 50 mg testosterone propionate) is a much better choice. Speaking of front-loading, for this express purpose sustanon may be very suited. One could probably obtain results faster If one were to use 500 mg of sustanon on day 1, then again 5 days later on day 6 and start a cycle of enanthate/cypionate at 500 mg/week on day 11.
As with all testosterones the rate of side-effects is quite high. Risks of androgenic side-effects (hair loss, prostate hypertrophy, deepening of voice) as well as estrogenic side-effects (gyno, water retention, fat gain) are real, and the use of ancillary drugs such as anti-estrogens will most likely be needed. This is something that I urge all users to take into account. Never start any cycle with testosterone without having at least a lot of Nolvadex and a few amps of HCG on hand. Testosterone is not in any way toxic, and should not give a user any problems apart from a high rate of occurrence of standard steroid side-effects...
Big Cat on BB.com .....
Bodybuilding.com - Big Cat - In Depth Sustanon 250 Profile!..
Wow this thread's still going. I can't remember the original point any more. something about me being a tosser I think......
Or someone asking should he loose bodyfat before he starts his course. sorry I can't answer that, it's a personal choice of individual preference. won't make any difference to the effectivity of your drug cycle..
After some debate about personal knowledge, this thread has developed into a cut and paste war (for a change).
All we're missing now is Ali and Cal bashing each other and this thread is complete..
Long live Musclechat, I love it here...
Yes BB.com.It's opinionated naff I know but it gets the basics across i.e. what 250 is.I don't necessarily agree with his personal views on it like it's poor value's etc...