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My next question is: Hi..

Im sure i've read about this somewhere before but I cant for the life of me find anything about it now..

Would it be a good idea to run both t3 & t4 together - at something like 100mcg t3/200mcg t4?.

If I'm talking sh!t and it's a really stupid idea then just tell me so lol.

Obviously, I wouldnt be relying on this for fat loss - diet/training/cardio would be in place first and this would be extra as I get towards my goal and things get more difficult.

Cheers.

Andy..

Comments (7)

Mate you cant beat cardio, these drugs have a use in competition, but outside of competition I really dont see the point. messing with thyroid drugs can be dangerous.

Just do cardio, dont be lazy...

Comment #1

I definatly do not agree with anyone who does not compete using thyroid meds as they are not needed.....cardio and diet along with ECA can acheive the desired look..

The dose you have mentioned is = to 150mcg's of T3 which is a big dose a better dose if both are going to be used is T3/25mcg with T4/100mcg's this would equal 50mcg's of T3....

You do not need to taper up or down the use of Thyroid meds there is no clinical proof that thyroids meds mess up your natty production long term.....

Comment #2

Agreed, tapering doesn't have any scientific basis, and thyroid hormone supplementation has been shown to be safer than AAS...

Comment #3

Lol cardio will be there without a doubt mate.. picking up a cross trainer for a good 25-30 mins upon waking and again after training (around a couple of doggy-walks a day too).

Also been reading up on carb-cycling so I can get all that into place too...

Ok, definitely got the wrong end of the stick then didnt i.... so basically, 100mcg's of t4 would be equivelent to an extra 25mcg's of t3?.

In all honesty, I would rather run t3 that one of the more 'stimulant' type products - not for an aspect of safety but more for being able to function more normally throughout the day (if that makes any sense!).

The idea of all this is to diet down to sub 10% to see what I actually have to go on with a view to competing 2009 (2010 if it's really poor!)..

How about tapering down at the end? to counteract the 'rebound' effect?.

Cheers for the input guys....

Comment #4

Hi Mate.

Heres some reference data courtesy of anabolicreview.com.

Natural T3 is a regulator of the oxidative metabolism of energy producing substrates (food or stored substrates like fat, muscle, and glycogen) by the mitochondria. The mitochondria, as you will recall from your high school biology class, are usually referred to as the "cells powerhouses" because they produce ATP. Taking Cytomel (supplemental T3) greatly increases the uptake of nutrients into the mitochondria and also their oxidation rate (i.e. the rate at which they are burned for energy), by increasing the activities of the enzymes involved in the oxidative metabolic pathway. Everything is working harder, in other words, and more fuel is needed to supplement this increased work rate. Therefore, as you can guess, taking supplemental Cytomel will increase your bodys energy demands.

This increased ATP causes an increase in overall metabolic activity. (8)(9)This is exactly what we want, and is why we would be taking thyroid hormones like Cytomel in the first place. If you arent taking anabolic steroids with your Cytomel, however, your body may start to eat away muscle to provide energy for you to function. Remember mitochondria/ATP arent very picky, but they are very efficient. What I mean by this is that they will use whatever is on hand to generate energy for your body to continue functioning, fat, protein, glucose; it doesnt matter to ATP, as long as theres something to give them energy.

Ergo, if we arent taking anabolic steroids while taking our T3, we may lose too much muscle, especially while dieting.

Thus we can see that there are many advantages to using Cytomel to optimize our metabolic rate. It will also increase your bodys ability to synthesize protein, but from what Ive seen personally, it acts as a catabolic when it isnt administered with anabolic steroids. It is often the last thing added into a precontest diet, as it has a reputation for getting rid of the last few percentages of bodyfat& the "sticky fat" as it's called in bodybuilding, the fat that just doesnt want to leave you in the last few weeks of dieting. I think this is a poor use for this drug, and that it should be the first thing added into a diet to lose fat, as it will optimize your metabolic rate, which should be done at the outset of a diet, not after the calorie restriction has diminished your thyroid output and you are adding it in simply to replace what was lost..

Cytomel Side Effects.

Unfortunately, in all of the studies Ive seen, T3 also increased growth hormone production. (5)(6) As we all know, GH is also a strongly lipolytic compound, and this is another mechanism by which T3 may exert it's effects, although I suspect this would only be a small percentage of it's overall effects. This being the case, it has always been somewhat problematic to me to note that when GH and T3 are used together, the increased nitrogen retention normally found with GH use is negated. (7). If you were only using T3 and GH this may be a problem, but as Ive already stated, you are going to need some anabolic agents if you are using T3. And as you have read previously, I recommend the veritable anabolic/lipolytic orgy of Insulin, T3, Anabolic Steroids, GH, and insulin, for 100% maximum results in minimal time..

On the brighter side, and of special note to dieters, administration of T3 has been shown to upregulate the beta 2 receptors in fat tissue. As you know clenbuterol and similar compounds downregulate this receptor, so using T3 with your clen will help stave off or reverse this downregulation. (1)(2)(3)(4). I would still recommend taking your benadryl every third week, though..

Going off cytomel.

Finally, I would like to address the issue of recovery of your natural thyroid function after you stop taking cytomel. The horror stories of people on permanent thyroid replacement just arent true. I remember a few years ago, the rumor was circulating that the current Ms.Fitness had permanently shut off her thyroid gland, and was now fat and on thyroid hormone permanently. This is just another horror story based in nothing but conjecture and rumor, the studies Ive looked at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of several YEARS (!) of thyroid replacement therapy (10)(11). I speculate that you can optimize your metabolic rate with Cytomel for 9-10 months a year, and just normalize yourself for 2-3 months (perhaps the winter, when you are mostly covered up), and then go right back on. Some people in the studies I read were on T3 for 30 years and recovered their natural thyroid function within short order.

Is this aggressive? Yes. Is this unsafe? NO..

References:.

Catecholamines inhibit Ca(2+)-dependent proteolysis in rat skeletal muscle through beta(2)-adrenoceptors and cAMP. Navegantes LC, Resano NM, Migliorini RH, Kettelhut IC Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Sep;281(3):E449-54.

Regulation of human adipocyte gene expression by thyroid hormone J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2002 Feb;87(2):630-4 Viguerie N, Millet L, Avizou S, Vidal H, Larrouy D, Langin D.

Alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic receptor binding and action in gluteal adipocytes from patients with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism Metabolism 1987 Nov;36(11):1031-9 Richelsen B, Sorensen NS.

Regulation of beta 1- and beta 3-adrenergic agonist-stimulated lipolytic response in hyperthyroid and hypothyroid rat white adipocytes Br J Pharmacol 2000 Feb;129(3):448-56. Germack R, Starzec A, Perret GY.

Role of thyroid hormone in the control of growth hormone gene expression Braz J Med Biol Res 1994 May;27(5):1269-72. Volpato CB, Nunes MT.

Low-dose T(3) improves the bed rest model of simulated weightlessness in men and women. Am J Physiol 1999 Aug;277(2 Pt 1):E370-9 Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Zachwieja JJ, Bray GA, Windhauser MM, Wickersham PJ, Veldhuis JD, Tulley R, de la Bretonne JA.

Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man. Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen. J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9.

Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th Edition. John w. Hole jr.

Physicians Desk Reference.

Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN..

Comment #5

Cool cheers.. hmm, so going by that - something along the lines of the first 6 weeks of t3 followed by 2 of clen would be a good idea.... I guess after that regardless of the results id have to keep the diet strict to prevent the yo-yo type effect though!.

This could start to get complicated I think..

Being on them for 9-10 months sounds insane! lol..

Comment #6

Hi Mate.

I talk from personal experience and yes I do agree it would be the last resort fatburner like DNP. Even on blking courses I have ran T3 too good effect in that the metabolism is enhanced and not as much fat will be piled on than not using even when calories are higher. As I say I dont endorse but I have used and been impressed with the effects. Others will beg to differ although thats what a discussion forum is all about,.

R..

Comment #7


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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