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My first question is: How safe is VitaminShoppe complete cleansing detox ?

My next question is: I'm a footballer and, unfortunately, I can't play for the next few months. I'm thinking of doing a 6-8week cycle on Winstrol only. I've read it increases your red blood cell count, and strengthens a hell of a lot more than it bulks.

I'm thinking 50mg eod injected. is this a good idea, and what kind of results can I expect?.

Much thanks...

Comments (23)

Well deca is better for joints and tendons and a hell of a lot cheaper and the amount of muscle you would gain especially running GH on it's own you would be able to count on one hand and that would be after you have been on it ed for at least 12 - 16 weeks there are much much better options out there than GH......

My point though is I don't think this guy is ready for steroids no matter what it is, if he wants to fix his joints then I would suggest him to use hjoint support from universal great product it has cleared up my joint problems....which where still there after 40 weeks of using GH ...go figure.....

Comment #1

I don't think it's a quick fix at all. I've been weight training for years, but it's always taken a backseat to my football training.

I've been doing more research, and it looks like EQ would be a good option as it increases red blood cell count and gives lean muscle gains. Mostly I'm looking for power and speed..

I'm 6'2" and 185...

Comment #2

Hi Mate.

I do believe EQ on it's own will affect labido as it's similar to deca which causes the infamous "Deca ****", thats a reason why test is usually used in conjunction..

R..

Comment #3

Really? I read it causes an increase in libido...

Comment #4

Deca is definately one of the few steroids that improves collagen synthesis. However, when using it the reudction in joint pain is mainly due to the increase in fluid within the joints when on it. Once your off cycle this benefit goes away. GH improvements are permanent.

Given that he is a footballer I doubt he'd want to put on large gains as it give his heart, lungs and joints a hard time while they catch up. Further, football is obviously a sport where speed and more importantly acceleration are crucial. Power to weight ratio, not size, is whats important and as a result steroids which give clean gains should be at the top of the list. Eq has the additional bonus of improving endurance too.

I can relate to chaaaliboy as I'm play rugby so speed and acceleration are crucial to me to. As a result I tend to go for cycles which give lean gains and are good for joints. E.g. I'm currently running Eq, Primo, Test-E and GH. During the actual rugby season I'll probably only run Anavar, GH and periodic EPO injections...

Comment #5

What kind of gains do you get with the GH, and does it improve stamina as well? I'm thinking of using IGF for pre-season fitness training to improve recovery time...

Comment #6

The gains from GH will not be as big as with steroids. But GH makes your body create new muscle cells where as steroids make the ones you have bigger. GH and it's derivatives (like igf) are the only ways to beat the genetic limit on muscle cells that eveyone has. Also, you will not lose any of these new muscle cells post cycle. And you'll have more muscle cells to grow in fututre cycles so you'll get stronger faster. Another benefit is that GH promotes fat loss (or at least it stops me from getting fat on bulking diets).

GH won't improve stamina but will speed up your body's recovery out of the gym/after training. To improver stamina you really need something hat makes your body produce new blood cells, i.e Eq or the Tour de France favourite EPO (not a steroid but is the protein responsible for making you body make more red blood cells). There are a lot of other benefits to GH, some people even report their hair groing back, although I can't vouch for this from my experience...

Comment #7

Thanks for all the advice. I think i've decided on a cycle:.

Week 1-8 EQ 500mg/wk.

Week 1-6 winny inj. 50mg/eod.

Week 5-8 HCG 500iu/eod.

Week 6-10 20mg/day Nolva and as needed.

Is it ok to mix more than one compound in the same syringe? say mixing my weekly dose of EQ with one of my winny or HCG doses? I'm going to be using 20 gauges, so the less holes I have to punch in myself the better..

And once pre-season starts:.

Week 1-6 60mcg/day LR3 IGF (split 30mcg twice a day).

Anyone have any suggestions for my cycle?.

Thanks for the help!..

Comment #8

Hi Chaaalieboy. You'll need to run some Test unless you don't mind the drop in aggression and energy you'll get without running it. The dose can be low, enough to replace the shutdown of natural test production, say 200-250mg/week of Test-Enanthate..

I still would not run the Winny,run Anavar instead. Its less toxic to your liver, and it will really help improve your power to weight ratio. Plus your joints won't get brittle (and this really is a BIG problem with Winny). I think most people would agree that as a drug to improve power while staying lean Anavar is better than Winny..

You are starting your PCT too early. Start it in week 9 or 10. You will still have high levels of Eq in your blood at the sart of week 9 as it is a very long lasting ester (half life of 10.5days!). Personally I'd do three weeks of Nolva, with 40mg/day first week, 30mg/day second week and 20mg/day third week..

I don't think you'll really need HCG but if you want to give your balls a jump start then why not. Be careful though, you can probabaly get a girl pregnant just by looking at here if you're on HCG (it makes your sperm count go through the roof)..

Don't run the igf everyday, you'll quickly overwhelm your muscles receptor sites. Pin it immediately after a workout/training (the sooner the better) at 50mgs. If you run higher doses you'll put yourself at risk of getting igf gut (not pretty and not something you can get rid of)..

Injectable winny (I think you should ditch the winny anyway) won't mix with Eq but you can still draw and inject both substances from the same syringe. A 20gauge is a big needle, more like a dart. Far bigger than you need for injecting in my experience. 1 1/2inch 25 or 23gauge for your butt and 1inch 25/23gauge for quads or elsewhere will is a good combination I beleive. If you happen to know that your steroids use Ethyl Oleate as a carrier (not that likley, mine do but I brew my own juice)) then you can even shoot through a 27gauge quite happily.

PS Did I mention, ditch the Winny get some Anavar!..

Comment #9

Is injectable winny liver toxic?.

Also, winny injects are usually done ED not EOD..

Comment #10

Believe me, I would def. go with the var if I could afford it, but the cheapest var I've found would cost me around $1,500 to run for an eight week cycletoo bad stealth isnt making anyAnd I dont mind the testosterone shutdown too much, as i'm reluctant to mess around with test (I'm genetically predisposed to about EVERY side effect) and I'm only running the winny for sixpotentially sexlessweeks..

Also, thanks for the info on the IGF, good advice about it is hard to find.

Charlie..

Comment #11

OK. At those prices I can understnad why you don't want to run Var. How about Turinabol? Its sometimes referred to as no bloat Dbol. It should give some good lean gains and won't **** up your joints in the same way as Winny.

Halotestin is another possibility. Its amazing for increasing strength and muscle hardness (but not good for bulking). INvestigate these further and see what prices these run at before jumpng in with the Winny.

Injectable Winny is still 17 alkylated (just like the oral) so is still toxic..

PS IGF will build new muscle cells better than GH but it doesn't have the same strengthening effect on joints and bones that GH does...

Comment #12

It's a little too late now, my stealth sachets just came in the mail today. I took my first EQ inj, but I'm reluctant to use the winny b/c you seem so adamantly opposed to using it.

I've talked to other runners/footballers that said this combo worked wonders for them, and they had no joint probs at all. Still, no one want to **** their knees up, so I think ill lay of workouts that are hard on the knees while I take the winny..

Did I mention I'm really HUNGRY!!!..

Comment #13

Also, will HCG or proviron keep me from getting limp noodle?(hehe, they blocked the other word I wrote)..

Comment #14

HCG and proviron should both stop the limp noodle problem! Normally people take test with eq to keep them ready to perform but these work too. Proviron should harden you up too (but can speed up hair loss). I don't know anyone who has used HCG throughout a cycle.HCG is normally used for a boost for your tackle 6 weeks in and during PCT..

If winny is stacked with Eq, the Eq may help to offset the problems winny gives your joints (possibly, just speculating). If you do use it you can still do leg exercises. However, go for lower weight and higher reps. And definately don't do any plyometrics, that would be an excellent way to fk up your knees on winny. Go slow and steady on the lifts, no bouncing at the bottom. Thats a definate no to the Clean and Jerk and other fast lifts.

Primobolan is another option for the future, it gives; decent clean size and strength gains, very low side effects and little water retention. At least thats what I'm seeing and I'm running Primo, Eq, Test (low dose of test though, there to compensate for drop in natural test production on cycle) and HGH right now. I think my goals are probably pretty similar to yours seeing as we are both primarily interested in our performance on a pitch and not getting injured.

I'm scared of winny because I know a couple of people who have injured themselves lifting in the gym while on Winny. They weren't olympic lifting or anything like that, just regular training. Now if experienced lifters can **** themselves up badly doing regular training it makes me wonder what would happen after a couple of hard hits in my case, or some hard tackles or getting hacked down from behind in your case. None of these guys were running Eq with it because they were cutting and Eq is crap for that becuase it makes you so hungry. Maybe Eq is enough to offset the damage from Winny, but I just don't know. For me, it's just not worth the risk. JMO..

Comment #15

Testosterone is a metabolite of 1-Testosterone which is what you get from Boldenone (EQ). You shouldn't have **** problems, the conversion rate should leave your test in a similar range to endogenous..

I see no evidence of Deca increasing either type-I/II collagen synthesis or cross-linkage ability in any studies. It's joint friendly effects mainly come from supression of cellular immunity..

Similarly the joint supporting reputation of EQ seems to be brotelligence, as there is no published literature to support this..

Winny increases tendon strength but reduces cross-linkage - in English they will be stronger but more brittle...

Comment #16

"brotelligence" I like that. lol. So your saying the EQ should cancel out the winny's limp noodle effects?..

Comment #17

I don't think you're going to have issues. The more experienced AAS users here will be quick to point out that **** issues are more of a possibility than a probability. 500mg/wk EQ should definitely keep you in reference range for test though...

Comment #18

I've posted an article that sums up how various steroids affect ligaments and tendons.

Regarding winny increasing strength but making your joints brittle you need to be very careful about how you interpret terms like strength (which should be used in their scientific and engineering meanings, which are often quite different to what the general public think they mean). The joints do get thicker which increases the strength of the ligament as a STRUCTURE (it does not increase the strength of the ligament material but beacuse the ligament has more cross sectional area the whole thing ends up stronger). Strength is a measure of how much force is needed to deform (stretch in this case) a material a certain amount divided by the cross sectional area of the material. So to stretch you're ligaments a certain amount will require more force for a thickned winny joint compared to a normal one because the winny ligament is thicker. This might make winny sound like a good thing, but it isn't..

You described winny as making the joints brittle. I have seen this description of winny making brittle a lot but the term 'brittle' is being used completely incorrectly (even in journal papers, but in general medics no sweet FK all about the mechanics of structures and materials). Ligaments in the body (assuming it's alive!) will not fail in a brittle manner. I think what people mean when the use the term brittle is that the material exhibits a lower strain to failure (this is not the same as brittle). I.e. the ligament can't stretch as far before breaking.

Becuase where a hit/tackle might have just stretched or lightly strained a normal ligament, a ligament modified by winny fould break....not a good thing. Anyway here is the article:.

Originally posted by Queen Of The Damned:.

This might help with some of your questionsWhile injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man..

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically.



Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon..

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon..

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose..

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth..

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn..

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and it's esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited..

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% less than deca and equipoise but still substantial..

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% slightly better than deca..

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting it's effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing..

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:.

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days.

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem..

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures..

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good they increase several biomakers of collagen syn ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically..

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS the decision is up to you...

Comment #19

You prepared to back up your points with some references ruggerbugger? Otherwise all I see is conjecture...

Comment #20

OK. Tracking down references is damn time consuming. I'll post relevant references as I find them (literature searches are seriously time consuming!) Anyway, here is a quote from the abstract of a paper that I found interesting:.

'Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound.'.

The paper is: The differential effects of stanozolol on human skin and synovial fibroblastsin vitro: DNA synthesis and receptor binding; Alison J. Ellis1 , Tim E. Cawston1 and Eleanor J. Mackie1; Rheumatology Research Unit, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Hills Road, Box 194, CB2 2QQ Cambridge, UK.

So why is synovial fibroblast inhibition important? Well, synovial fibrobalsts are the things that repair and maintain your joints. Stop them from functioning and your joints won't be happy!..

Comment #21

Thanks for all the info.

I've already gained a couple pounds, but I don't know if that's because i've really stepped up my diet and training regimen or because of the gear alone or a combination of the two. I have noticed I recover more quickly, tho. and I'm pretty damned excited. I also havn't noticed any joint discomfort, but maybe it's still too soon to tell.....

Comment #22

LoL! - Dude - 3.14am - if you are from the UK you should get some sleep!..

Comment #23


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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