Your question was: How much can you earn by working a starting potition @ VitaminShoppe?.
I don't see any reason to ever use clen given the multitude of studies showing cardiac myopathy...
But the studies show cardiac myopathy on rats at a dose that would never be used by a human as it is far to high so really I do not see a problem as long as you do not abuse it..
That is not quite the case. The dosages used in the following study would translate to around 100mcg for a 100kg bodybuilder - quite a normal dosage...
Sorry to crash the party mate but....
Means 1 microgram per 1/10th of a kg. (-1) is maths notification of 'to the power of -1 (or divided by 10).
Which means the dosage given was 1mcg per 100grams bodyweight..
Which for a 100kg adult would be 1000mcg. And this study states that this was.....
So, the take home message really is - Do not regularly take 10 times the required dose of clenbuterol..
I knew my 'A' level in Maths would come in handy eventually.
Even if it has taken 12 years!! LOL..
DNP is crazy, clen is sh*te, albuterol is useless unless you have asthma, ECA works, although I don't like it personally, helios i've never tried, T3 or T4 will speed up your metabolism, with all the side effects that brings, and hgh is very expensive..
Have you ever tried CV ?
I knew it was a high dose unless you know some one who does 1000mcg's ed Raz.
Shane I would say that normal oral Clen is not for everyone I have much better results with either the oral liquid versions or Helios (which rocks) but you are bang on with the CV.....
Cardio and diet is what gets rid of it. the rest just speed it up some!.
Clen works well for me!..
Your maths is completely wrong. If you examine this link:.
You will notice that the (-1) is simply replacing a special character..
Additionally please note that a microgram is a millionth of a gram, as opposed to a milligram, which is a thousandth..
By the way, x^(-1) = 1/x - it is not x/10..
You'll see the original numbers were correct...
I still believe that the conversion from rats to human dose is nearer 1000mcg's to 100mcg's..
Do you understand this? One microgram per kilogram? Thats 1mcg/kilo...
Well if this is the dose which in truth is near a normal dose for most guys why have their not been an influx of guys keeling over after using Clen??..
If this is true, this is very significant.....
Just to clear up in anybody's head what raz is talking about:.
(g). =0.000 001 g.
G = mcg.
So, a millionth of a gram of clen per kilo is toxic (minimum).
So a 100kg bber, takes 100mcg of clen (very normal dose, in fact he would probably go higher), and this is toxic..
I think in regards to your question pscarb perhaps it's not something which kills you or your heart quickly, but maybe wears it down? it could be possible your heart is weaker now (who knows if significantly), than if you ever used clen?.
Interesting discussion here guys.
You're both right:.
Pscarb - it isn't something that's going to kill you right now, but the long run effects are significant, like LVH..
Nick - basically...
By the way, i'm not trying to be a ****, and i'm not trying to preach the bible. We all know that the majority of bodybuilding drugs are harmful one way or another, but I think it's worthwhile that we all make sure to employ the lesser of two evils when possible. In this case, evidence leans towards ECA/Albuterol being significantly safer...
Raz I am not thinking that you are trying to preach mate as if this is true then it is significant....
One of the reasons I don't believe the numbers is that I have my heart checked twice a year by my Doc and I have never had any issues and when dieting I do go higher than 100mcg's so if this does damage your heart I would of though after at least 10yrs of using clen I would see something by now.....
I think the problem here is the method of testing. I do not believe that anything like a ECG/EKG scan is capable of detecting this. The study itsself used essentially visible dyes in these tissues to highlight the problems. If you consult the literature regarding heart attacks, apoptosis plays a part in the permanent damage caused there; it's essentially a attritive process. I'm not sure if this is common, but I believe long term bodybuilding definitely merits the use of an ACE inhibitor, as is the case for a multitude of conditions whereby heart health may be a concern..
If you have time, I think this is worth a read:.
But an ECG/EKG should show up some problems if the dose is that small to cause these issues especially seeing as I have been using clen for over 10 yrs do you not agree??..
Whilst researching what has been said in this thread I found this....it clearly states it is in the early stages as studies goes but their findings are intresting...
Asthma Drug Might Help Fight Heart Failure advertisement.
FRIDAY, April 21 (HealthDay News) Body builders sometimes turn, illicitly, to the asthma drug clenbuterol to help them bulk up, but now researchers say the drug might also help heart failure patients stay strong without the need for heart transplant..
The first U.S. study of the drug found it was safe in a small number of heart failure patients. The drug was also found to increase skeletal muscle mass and strength, although there was no significant change in heart function..
The trial, which is a precursor to bigger trials, is an example of how far doctors will go to find solutions to the growing problem of heart failure..
And like many other avenues of research, the promise is still a faint one..
"We've learned the hard way that any pharmacological intervention in this very fragile group of patients needs to be studied very cautiously and thoroughly," cautioned Dr. Ann Bolger, a spokeswoman for the American Heart Association and professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco. "Something that looks to be positive early on may not still be positive later on.".
The end step for many heart failure patients is a heart transplant. But with a worldwide shortage of organ donors, many patients have to survive on heart pumps. Is there a way to avoid both heart pumps and transplants? Possibly, the experts say..
"The idea is to one day develop strategies to promote cardiac recovery while patients are supported with a heart pump. That would obviate the need for heart transplants," said Dr. Simon Maybaum, medical director of the Center for Advanced Cardiac Therapy and the Cardiac Transplant and Assist Device Program at Montefiore Medical Center and Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City. "This is a growing area of research, and both novel pharmacological agents and cellular therapy [stem cells] will be studied. This research is crucial since because of the critical lack of organs for patients with end-stage heart failure.".
Maybaum was lead author of the study, which was presented recently at a meeting of the International Society of Heart and Lung Transplantation in Madrid, Spain..
"We're looking for ways to make the transition off the pump and potentially go forward from there," Bolger added. "We need more tools to save lives.".
Studies done by one British center found that clenbuterol resulted in significant improvement in cardiac function in patients with heart pumps awaiting heart transplants. In fact, the pumps could be taken out in more than half of the patients, meaning they no longer were in need of transplant. Those studies used doses 20 times those typically used by asthma patients and athletes..
Clenbuterol is not approved in the United States and, in fact, has a checkered history: Some people fell ill after eating livestock that had been treated with the drug..
Maybaum, however, managed to obtain permission from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to conduct a small pilot study using high-dose clenbuterol..
There were two parts to the study: The first tested high-dose clenbuterol in heart pump patients. The second focused on whether the drug in lower doses would improve muscle function and quality of life in heart failure patients without heart pumps (those with milder heart failure). Seven patients completed the study..
Clenbuterol did increase skeletal muscle mass and strength, and was safe at the doses given 10 to 15 times that usually taken by asthmatics and athletes. There was no significant change in heart function. However, Maybaum pointed out that the study was not designed to look at this..
Data from the second part of the study is still blinded to researchers, and therefore not yet available..
The next step will be to conduct a multi-center trial in the United States to try to replicate the British findings with heart pump patients..
However, some experts voiced major concerns..
"Patients in heart failure have a pretty broad spectrum of responses to all kinds of therapies, so we have to be very careful. In some situations, this type of drug can be very dangerous with respect to arrhythmias, blood pressure changes and even stroke," Bolger said. "Medications that seem to give the heart an extra boost sometimes make patients feel better, but increase early mortality.".
On the other hand, Bolger added, muscle-building strategies including physical fitness, have already been shown to benefit heart failure patients..
Even the study authors were cautious about the odds of success..
"Whenever there are such novel results which have the potential to dramatically affect such a difficult disease process, we go into the research with a mixture of excitement and skepticism," Maybaum acknowledged. "We're optimistic that we will find solution, but we're not sure which one will bear out. We will definitely live in an era where we will be able to repair the heart as opposed to replace it.".
SOURCES: Simon Maybaum, M.D., medical director, Center for Advanced Cardiac Therapy and the Cardiac Transplant and Assist Device Program, Montefiore Medical Center and Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York City; Ann Bolger, M.D., spokeswoman, American Heart Association and professor, medicine, University of California San Francisco; April 5-8, 2006, presentation, International Society of Heart and Lung Transplantation annual meeting, Madrid, Spain.
Publish Date: April 21, 2006..
Really, I thought ephedrine was equally potentially harmful to the heart ?
It's been a while since i've gone through the recent studies on adrenergic agonists. I'm going to do some reading and report back, so as not to mislead anyone...
Thats the problem with these scientific reports. One day one of 'em says summats bad, next it good....
What the hell is anyone supposed to believe??.
Thats why this forum is so good. We have numerous, very knowledgable guys such as PScarb, RazG, young Guns, Extreme etc etc, who can exchange info on what they've found and report back so we all benefit..
Score one for Musclechat I recon..
Keep up the good work guys!!!!..
Going back to the original article that was cited:.
Work from our laboratory has shown that doses as little as 100 g/kg can induce cardiomyocyte necrosis. For a 100kg person to take this does they would need to take 500 of the 20mcg tablets that Clen usually comes in [g is the correct scientific symbol (called SI units) for microgram, mcg is an often used alternative, as it is easier to write and print than , (which is a Greek letter, Mu). So.... if anyone does take 500 tabs of Clen in one go they would be either (a) absolutely barking mad or (b) have a huge amount of money to spend on Clen, or (c) both (a) and (b)..
The report also says: The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 g/kg, This dose would only be 5 of the 20mcg tablets, 100mcg, and a normal dose taken by many Bodybuilders, so this may sound a bit more worrying. However, please note the first quote, related to truly huge doses, says cardiomyocyte necrosis. Necrosis is a bad thing, very bad in fact, it means death of cells due to infection, disease and, trauma. And necrosis of the heart (cardiomyocyte) makes you dead (but remember only the filthy rich mental case chugging 500 tabs back needs to worry about this). "Apoptosis" (induced by the standard dose of 5 tablets a day), however, is simply the normal and constant process in the body of cells dying and regenerating. Its a natural healthy process..
So, the bottom line is Clen is not overly dangerous unless you take insane amounts..