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ForEver Living Products VS VitaminShoppe. Who is better?

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My first question is: ForEver Living Products VS VitaminShoppe. Who is better?.

My next question is: Ok heres the deal, ive posted here before it's just been a pretty long while.

Been training for 5ish years now eat great train hard..

Im 9 weeks in on a cycle of test and deca 400mg a week of test and 300mg a week of deca pretty light.

I started at about 193lbs I'm currently around 213lbs so roughly 20lbs gained..

Its my first time cycling these 2 types of gear. ive been starting my 40mg a day of nolvadex for a week nowi only plan on doing about an 11 week cycle. ( I leave for vacation may 4-11 theres a gym there and ill be able to eat loads like I am now).

Other than PCT and keeping my calorie intake up whats the best way to hold on to some or most of my gains? I was thinking when I got back from my trip id try creatine and triabolis (spelling?).

Any thoughts on how well thse gains are for that cycle? and/or advice on holding on to them?.

Thanks in advance..

Comments (13)

Your question was: ForEver Living Products VS VitaminShoppe. Who is better?.

I plan on still eating like a horse once I'm off I average 7 meals a day on good days sometimes only 6 and theres been quite a few time where I'm at 8 or so..

I sure didnt expect to keep all my gains but only 5 or 6 lbs is depressing ah well just gotta train harder I guess..

Comment #1

Something I suggest you look up if you are not already using it. It's crucial in getting your balls back working quicker, therefore keeping gains better. In simple terms...

Comment #2

Actually bud i`d say you should be training abit less off cycle/resting more off cycle..

Be careful of overeating too..

Its easy to put on weight just to keep the scales happy...

Comment #3

Yea cal before my cycle I was training less, basically more rest days between training. but I still gotta keep training to failure. I tend to do a couple warmup sets at about 75-80% then my last 2 all out to failure. 4 th set ill do a drop set and then some negatives to finish her off good..

I asked today about the HCG and I was told it's basically the same as the nolvadex. would the nolvadex not suffice?..

Comment #4

Its aint even close to nolva, From what it sounds I wouldnt listen to any advice this guy told you..

Nolva to the point is an anti-estrogen stops bi*ch t*ts..

Hcg To be used during a cycle or midway thru to help aid of shrinking of the balls and too help them recover quicker when you fin cycle.

Plenty research recommended.

Id also uses tribulus too. Proviron is meant to be pretty good too...

Comment #5

The guys arent being alarmist mate, you defo need hcg for those meds...

Comment #6

This is a part of a copy and paste, I can't remember who posted it on uk-muscle.co.uk but it was probably hackskii who is very knowledgeable on pct..

How to KEEP GAINS.

This info I have gleaned from self-research, trail and error, from my endocrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years..

This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering".

First of all I would like to stress that I and my endocrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular development that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production..

In reality what usually happens is that many (not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training..

If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly over train and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibility of injury which also will hinder gains keeping.

You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's..

As an estimate of natural max the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10") and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a dead lift of about 500 pounds without steroids..

ANCILLARIES....HCG.

Dare I say that HCG use is more important than SERMS(nolva or clomid) for good HPTA recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer).

Personally I would use HCG during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid HPTA recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.

Now you will recover HPTA without HGC, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains..

HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during pregnancy. It mimics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimulates testosterone production in the testes.

It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use..

If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisin size. NO ****. Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessment of testicular size.



NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and Anavar for you skeptics. As little as 100mg a week of testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks..

HPTA RECOVERY.

The hormones that drive the HPT axis (LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation. The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months (if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention psychological issues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue..

* SO it is important for "optimal" gains keeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes..

HOW TO USE HCG.

It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied..

With this in mind prudent use of HCG is DURING a cycle..

HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.

Take it at 500 IUs every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle..

Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use HCG. In this method one injects a high dose of HCG right near the end of a cycle but before clomid. The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days later and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's total time three weeks..

No use taking clomid or nolvadex with the HCG since HCG will suppress the HPTA all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates..

WARNING...if you use HCG at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it...

Comment #7

Wow very helpful. I thank you..

Dont get me wrong cal I wasnt doubting anyones knowledge or advice, I just wasnt clear exaclty the difference between HCg and nolva..

As for now it's far too late for me to get my hands on this for this cycle. it's a definite that I will be looking into it for my next.

As for now since tribulus is easier to get a hold of, would you recommend I grab some of that asap?..

Comment #8

Ive done alot of readiong and asking questions the past couple days. I hope no1 here sees me as alost cause. I take anyone heres advice seriously..

Giving more information has helped others guide me inot the right direction..

Apparently Test E which I'm taking is a longer ester and I should be taking it 2 weeks longer than my deca. so at this point I alrdy cut the deca april 21st and my last shot of testE was april 25th. so I was advised to do one more shot of testE coming up may 2nd and discontinue the nolva asap, then continue my PCT of nolvadex 2 weeks after my last shot. this gievs me time to grab HCG since I was also advised to start that when I started my other PCT..

As for other ways to help my body recover I was told ZMA ,6-oxo or even tribulus can help with libido..

I kinda feel like a jackass going on the advice of people I know in real life who have been at this sort of thing for years and are much older than I am. thought they knew what they were doing makes me glad I came here for assurance..

So is it safe to say it's not too late for me? I really want a full recovery and no more of this nonsense I plan on going for blood tests in a couple months to c where I'm at before I even consider researching my next cycle..

Anyways long post thanks to anyone who reads it and replies very much appreciated..

Comment #9

Horrible advice. or maybe you misunderstood what someone told you. longer esters mean it stays active in the body for a longer duration, thus you must discontinue the drug earlier than expected. enanthate and decanote are similar in clearance times anyway so i'd stop them in the same week. having another shot of test E 2 weeks after the deca has stopped is not going to help. also, nolvadex has a short half life, hence the need for daily or every other day usage.

However, circulating estrogen levels are still very high, thus the reason you must use nolva right through to the end of your course if you're using aromatising androgens (which you are). stop taking it now, and the high level of circulating estrogen that has been building up will suddenly be able to bind to the receptors as there is no longer any nolvadex present in the body to stop this. general rule of thumb, once you start taking nolva on cycle, don't stop until the aromatising compounds have left your system...

Comment #10

Well, I do agree with some of the post but enanthate clears much faster than the deconate ester..

Deca is very supressive and I have found it to be the most supressive..

I noticed up to 3 months later it can have supressive effects..

So, the longer the deca has to clear the system the better off you are for recovery sake..

HCG I would suggest here..

I prefere an AI over a SERM during the cycle..

I prefere a SERM over an AI for PCT..

Issues with nolva and deca can arise with some progestin gyno, so this is another reason I prefere an AI over nolva during, among other reasons...

Comment #11

[quote=hackskii;229397]...but enanthate clears much faster than the deconate ester..

Deca is very supressive and I have found it to be the most supressive..

I noticed up to 3 months later it can have supressive effects..

So, the longer the deca has to clear the system the better off you are for recovery sake..

[quote].

Sorry but enanthate does Not clear "much faster" than Decanoate. The active ingredient clearance is roughly the same..

The reason Deca is suppressive for longer is due to the metabolites being suppressive in and of themselves. But that doesn't mean the Nandrolone itself hasn't been metabolised and cleared...

Comment #12

I think you missed my point.

Ok, lets just look at this a bit more closely..

It is the ester that determines when the steroid is released into the blood..

This determines when it gets into the blood and how long it will take to clear..

Half life of all esters is determined by how many carbon atoms the ester has..

To determine how long the half life you look at how many carbon atoms a steroid ester has..

Enanthate for instance has 7 carbon atoms..

Deconate has 10 carbon atoms..

Approximately each carbon atoms is equal to a half-life of 1.5 days.

So, roughly that would be 10.5 days on the enanthate, and 15 days for the deconate ester..

That is what like 30% longer?.

Deconate will take longer to ramp up and longer to ramp down once blood plasma levels get up there..

So, yes enanthate will clear faster than deconate, and depending on the dose it could be considerable..

There is a study I can post on men receiving 1000mg of testosterone undeconate, and for 6 weeks their blood plasma levels did not drop below base levels..

If one was to start his PCT too early using long esters, you can miss the whole PCT..

This is my point..

I understand there are two points here, one with deca being suppressive, and yes decas metabolites can be detected for up to a year and in some cases longer, but we are talking about clearance times in order to start PCT..

I would drop the deca a week earlier then the enanthate, actually I would run the enanthate longer. But I dont use deca anymore due to it being so suppressive with me.

Another thing, nolva alone I have found didnt cut it for PCT..

The Clomiphene stimulation test helps to determine if one is primary (nuts), or secondary (pituitary) hypogonadism..

The test is 100mg of clomid for 5 to 7 days the results generally are a doubling of LH and a 20% to 50% increase in FSH..

That is huge by all accounts and nolva can not lay claim to this..

With that said, I would recommend running both clomid and nolva (reasons I will expound upon if asked), this I myself have noticed the best results from during PCT..

But this is all mute point if the nuts are not brought online prior to stimulation of the pituitary..

The pituitary, and hypothalamus come online fairly quickly, the nuts on the other hand can be very stubborn, this is the single biggest factor in failure during a PCT...

Comment #13


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

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