candidablog.com

A supplentment called"mental energy" at VitaminShoppe health stores?

Want the Latest VitaminShoppe Coupons Every Month?


Enter your email address below and we'll send you the latest coupon codes to save on VitaminShoppe every month. We'll even give a lucky person a month supply of free vitamins.


My first question is: A supplentment called"mental energy" at VitaminShoppe health stores?.

My next question is: This post is to give a basic understanding of what PCT is and how to go about it......there are different views to the one written here by Jenetic but these views are individual and come from trial and error..

This is copied from elite fitness it was written by Jenetic..

I think it gives a basic understanding of PCT.

Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism:.

Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH)..

The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum LH and FSH concentrations..

In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (PCT)..

Gonadotropin Therapy:.

There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary LH. This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect.

Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG..

*The addition of an FSH preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to it's application at this time..

HCG is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x -1) syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (-1ml 28-30G x -1) are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration..

The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:.

HCG ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution..

HCG multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days..

Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary..

The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring HCG. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs HCG with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc)..

*Bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required..

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:.

Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) increase pituitary LH secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the HPTA. On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy.

Therefore, SERMs are used during PCT primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary LH after HCG has been discontinued..

Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations..

Before Beginning PCT:.

It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of PCT in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required..

The following are Fasting blood values:.

Hormone.

1. Cortisol, Total.

2. Estradiol, Extraction.

3. Prolactin.

4. LH.

5. FSH.

6. T3, Free.

7. T4, Free.

8. TSH.

9. Testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound.

10. Hemoglobin A1C.

11. Fasting Insulin.

12. Somatomedian C (optional).

Cardiovascular.

13. CBC.

14. Comprehensive Metabolic Panel.

15. Lipid Panel.

Other.

16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp Metabolic Panel.

When to begin PCT:.

On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.

Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known crash effect..

*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system..

PCT Protocol(s):.

1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks..

3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks..

4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks..

Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid..

*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks..

HCG During Cycle:.

HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.

Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage...

Comments (28)

Your question was: A supplentment called"mental energy" at VitaminShoppe health stores?.

Second post, first was another correction...like this will be. This is a good board. It seems to be filled with people eager to learn and share. But advice like this is not what members should be exposed to. Let me elaborate:.

The below are not my words but are of a well published, respected HRT specialist. His method is widely accepted.

If you are lazy like I am sumtimes youll probably not read the whole article. and so ill sum up the vital points: Dont use hcg in pct, only on cycle..

Dose @ 250ius twice a week starting around 4 weeks in..

Not to be done for short cycles or oral cycles..

Swales method allows for a faster recovery and significantly less atrophy of the testicles..

So here it is guys...enjoy:.

"""""Swale's HCG advice.

By swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery..

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporaryhopefully)..

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive..

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERMs at the same time.

Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well..

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a "bridge". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the body? it is smarter than you are..

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?)..

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other.

JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:.

My New HCG Protocol Paper.

This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:.

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL.

By John Crisler, DO.

In my paper My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men, published in A4Ms 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:.

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCGa Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analogwill effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones..

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now lets delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable.

Testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly cycle compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right timewithout inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp..

But theres another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed..

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition..

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)..

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching it's peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot it's mark..

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They neednt concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline..

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems doeven when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more traditional TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerfuland wonderfulhormone than previously given credit..

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in it's entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to it's author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.""""".

Peace,.

Dogfox..

Comment #1

Swale is a great guy with huge knowledge base but his methods have not been a success with everyone.....but is a good place to start just as the original post is but in all cases you need to fit it to yourself as one plan does not fit all....for example.....

250iu's of HCG whilst on cycle twice a week is not enough for many to kick over the testes for me 500iu's E3d is much more efficient......

Plus suppression starts in pretty much the first week of any cycle as the body detects synthetic testosterone so waiting 4 weeks has proved to be to late......

As for not to be carried out for short and oral cycles now this I need to look into as atrophy of the testes occur on all steroids taken in high enough doses to create muscle gains so would love to know the reasoning....maybe you can give your experiances of this type of atrophy prevention as you seem to be up to date with Swales work....??..

Comment #2

Yes suppression begins much earlier, however atrophy of the testicles progresses slowly up until several weeks in. This is when the bodys mechanisms really start to feel the effects of exogenous T. And so although dosing HCG before this time is acceptable, it is not necessary as your balls wont be so small that they cant be brought back by a simple nolva therapy.

But after 8 weeks of exogenous T it is much harder for our testes to 'bounce back' as it were. And this is why you implement the HCG after 4 weeks, regardless of whether your straight up inj. or kick starting with an oral..

As for oral only cycles, they do not exhibit so much of a profound effect on making your balls shrink up. they are often shorter too. Now this isnt to say you cant gain 15 or 20lbs from a well constructed oral cycle, but similar results dont equate to the same amount of atrophy.

As for HCG in pct, or as I like to call it 'Ball blasting' you are effectively doing more damage than good. Let me elaborate..

HCG merely mimics LH, it tricks our endocrine system. Our leydig cells become wise to this after time and so often 2 week breaks on cycle are taken away from HCG and then resumed. However by taking such high doses and in short time spans our leydig cells can be rendered less effective (hypogonadism)- due to aromatization of high dosed HCG and just simply too much 'fake' LH , permanently affecting our HPTA and base line T levels.

Your suggested high dose method for short durations will bring some size back to the boys, but at a higher cost than swales advice.

Now you say 250ius for you isnt enough...im assuming youve also tried your blasting method of HCG. Hence you now require a higer dosage as your leydig cells are less responsive and somewhat damaged. Now this is merely me assuming..

However many ppl do need more than 250ius x2 per week even if they havent abused HCG. And swale even advocates, if needed, that one can shoot up this dose more frequently. Even up to ED in extreme cases. the idea is not to overdose and go beyond a dose that is effective - this dose being 250ius..

And so for you I would recommend experimenting with multiple 250ius shots per week and see where you stand. You may need only one more, perhaps 3. But either way youll be doing your balls a huge favour..

Now I'm not sure about the 4 weeks in being proven to be ineffective. But I will grant that there is debate. Simply put however 4 weeks of test doesnt make your balls pea sized and so although supression is occuring, testicular atrophy is merely advancing and after a few weeks in if HCG isnt administerd recovery of the HPTA, ball size and fertility are comprmised..

Now I'm not the all knowing being about this, but I do know my stuff. I suggest you dont just take my word and do the research. Now you posted your stuff from EF and I'm a member there too. Thats a good place to start, the member neetogetaas is a good source of info - as our many other mods.

I do suggest you edit that post tho once youve conducted some research and realize a few things. You seem like a great guy and are trying to provide the members with some solid foundational info. But the high dosed HCG method, and it's use as a PCT aid is not very sound, or albeit safe advice.

The only reason I'm taking time to write this stuff is because I dont want ppl steered in the wrong direction, and potentially harming themselves.

Thanks for the speedy reply tho my friend. Most admins wouldnt engage in a discussion with a noob to the forum..

Btw if thats you in the pic, you have a sick set of tris my good man..

Peace,.

Dogfox..

Comment #3

I am not like most admins as I have 20yrs of trial and error and are still learning and do not mind admitting it......

I appreciate your knowledge on this subject as I do you spending the time to post on the board......

I won't edit the original post because it is not mine to edit, you will notice my first sentence though and I stand by it and that is that this is only one view but personnel PCT plans should be constructed for the individual through trial and error......

As for me believe me when I say I do not come to the 500iu's E3D plan lightly this is something that I have gotten to through years of trial and error this certainly does work for me, I have never done large amounts of HCG as I am aware of the desensitizing of the leydig cells I started low (100iu's eod) then over time came to this plan.....but as I said at the beginning I am more than welcome to new ideas.......

It is worth saying that many don't but should use Vit E to make the HCG more efficient in it's action......

Now I would challenge your view on oral and short cycles as this is a huge statement that cannot cover all doses that are used...i am sure you are aware of the continuing raising of doses by many of the newbies to the sport in an effort to get big quick I for one as a MOD/Admin on many boards have seen doses that will easily suppress if not crash the HPTA within 4 weeks......so I would say that this protocol should be used from day one......

I am a big believer on multiple small shots of HCG to help the Nuts.....i am also a huge believer in helping members to make the correct choice for them so I try to put all the information out there then draw on my own experiences to help them make the right choice for themselves.....

Please stick around and share your knowledge hopefully you will be open to debate knowing that not one way fits everyone.....

Yes that is me in my avatar thank you for the props.......

Comment #4

Good stuff. Have you tried HMG? Its similar to HCG, but doesnt mimic LH, but instead stimulates it's production. And supposedly is less suppressive (another reason HCG is a poor choice in a PCT)..

HMG due to the fact it actually raises LH means that the leydig cells are less easily desensitized...could be one to look into for these reasons..

As for oral cycles, yes they can easily crash anyones HTPA in a matter of weeks..however you dont start HCG from day one bc your nuts havent been affected quite yet. They are full sized. After 4 weeks there will be atrophy, but not overly excessive. And the HPTA can be recovered from this short spike in hormones - but a prolonged suppression lasting 8 weeks say is harder to recover from. Hence you start using when needed...and that is approx. 4 weeks in.

Some ppl do start earlier however if they are taking high doses of compounds over say a 10 week span - to make sure..

But again this would never be nessessary on even 60 mgs DBol with 150mgs Abombs ED for 4 weeks. Yes theres a hell of alot of juice in that short period, and yes the HPTA would be significantly affected...but it's a short spike for the endocrine system. The exogenous environment is still relatively new. And so recovery with a solid 4 week PCT would be more than possible. Now say you ran 8 weeks of this cycle (no body even try this please) I would say there are grounds to start HCG after the 4 weeks. But for 4 weeks never.

Its simply too short.

Longer and our bodys our more supressed, more used to the idea of supression. Its harder to recover from longer cycles. And this is where HCG comes in..

Good covering of the Vit E btw.

Again I understand there are varying opinions, I posted to put forward mine in lieu of info that could pose potential problems for future fellow 'cyclists' if you will..

Ill definitely stick around PScarb, this forum appears to have some good info and members alike..

Dogfox..

Comment #5

Yes mate I have heard and used HMG as it stimulates FSH (although as you have stated it does also mimic LH but not as much as HCG)which earlier this year was very important when me and the wife was trying for our third child.....i was using both on a weekly basis unfortunatly due to stress and a few health issues it never worked.......

Comment #6

Another good debate which raises more questions for me, brilliant that it is on the board, I learnt a lot. Grreat stuff[IMG]thumbs up[/IMG]..

Comment #7

PCT Protocol(s):.

1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.

6 weeks for pct?.

Can you not get away with taking the hgc and nolva for 3 weeks or do you have to keep taking nolva for the 3 weeks after?.

Cheers..

Comment #8

Leydig Cell Desensitization:.

Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic..

The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone..

Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:.

Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and it's side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and it's side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery.

This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary..

*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS.



Unsuccessful PCT:.

In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).

This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing..

Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individuals response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful..

Ongoing Argument(s):.

Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with HCG, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary LH secretion which in turn increases testosterone production..

There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs HCG 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of HCG once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during PCT are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage HCG usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed..

During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the HCG during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs..

The most common argument here when incorporating HCG during PCT is that HCG itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of HCG which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of LH. A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal HPTA function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. Whats even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of HCG during PCT is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs..

Conclusion:.

PCT should begin after the last injection and/or AAS intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin PCT is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This PCT protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs HCG and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively..

If recovery is unsuccessful, HCG is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that HCG is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen..

With the usage of HCG post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of LH, FSH and testosterone in this environment which includes HCG and SERMs during PCT versus HCG during cycle and SERMs only during PCT. This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, HCG should always be included during PCT in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery..

Jenetic..

Comment #9

As I mentioned there are little things that many do differently but on the whole it gives a good understanding on why you need to do PCT.....at the very least it tells you what PCT means which many guys have no clue about..

Comment #10

Second post, first was another correction...like this will be. This is a good board. It seems to be filled with people eager to learn and share. But advice like this is not what members should be exposed to. Let me elaborate:.

The below are not my words but are of a well published, respected HRT specialist. His method is widely accepted.

If you are lazy like I am sumtimes youll probably not read the whole article. and so ill sum up the vital points: Dont use hcg in pct, only on cycle..

Dose @ 250ius twice a week starting around 4 weeks in..

Not to be done for short cycles or oral cycles..

Swales method allows for a faster recovery and significantly less atrophy of the testicles..

So here it is guys...enjoy:.

"""""Swale's HCG advice.

By swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery..

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporaryhopefully)..

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive..

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERMs at the same time.

Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well..

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a "bridge". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the body? it is smarter than you are..

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?)..

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other.

JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:.

My New HCG Protocol Paper.

This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:.

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL.

By John Crisler, DO.

In my paper My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men, published in A4Ms 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:.

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCGa Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analogwill effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones..

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now lets delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable.

Testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly cycle compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right timewithout inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp..

But theres another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed..

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition..

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)..

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching it's peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot it's mark..

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They neednt concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline..

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems doeven when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more traditional TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerfuland wonderfulhormone than previously given credit..

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in it's entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to it's author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.""""".

Peace,.

Dogfox..

Comment #11


This question was taken from a support group/message board and re-posted here so others can learn from it.

 

Categories: Home | Aug 2010 - Acne | Aug 2010 - Weight Loss | July 2010 - Weight Loss |

July 2010 - Crohn's Disease | July 2010 - Celiac Disease | June 2010 - Weight Loss | June 2010 - Acne |

May 2010 - Weight Loss | May 2010 - Acne | April 2010 - Weight Loss | Mar 2010 - Weight Loss |

Mar 2010 - Dieting | Mar 2010 - Acne | Feb 2010 - Weight Loss | Feb 2010 - Dieting |

Jan 2010 - Dieting | Jan 2010 - Acne | Jan 2010 - Weight Loss | Dec 2009 - Acne |

Dec 2009 - Dieting | Dec 2009 - Weight Loss | Nov 2009 - Weight Loss | Nov 2009 - Dieting |

Oct 2009 - Dieting | Oct 2009 - Fitness | Oct 2009 - Weight Loss | Sep 2009 - Weight Loss |

Sep 2009 - Dieting | Aug 2009 - Dieting | Aug 2009 - Weight Loss | July 2009 - Weight Loss |

July 2009 - Dieting | Jun 2009 - Weight Loss | June 2009 - Dieting | May 2009 - Weight Loss |

May 2009 - Dieting | April 2009 - Weight Loss | April 2009 - Dieting | March 2009 - Weight Loss |

Feb 2009 - Weight Loss | Jan 2009 - Weight Loss | Dec 2008 - Weight Loss | Dec 2008 - Diet Programs |

Dec 2008 - Dieting | Dec 2008 - Diets | Nov 2008 - Dieting |

 

(C) Copyright 2010 All rights reserved.